Saracens are relegated!

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loretta
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta »

Sorry if I'm being dim, but why don't players salaries count if they haven't played yet?
Surely, unless they are excluded by dint of injury dispensation, they're still being paid, hence part of the salary bill?

From the PRL regulations,

Part c of the definition of a player, "(c) who either plays rugby for that Club or is or who has been available to play rugby
for that Club at any point in the relevant Salary Cap Year; "
Last edited by loretta on Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
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loretta
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta »

sam16111986 wrote: Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:20 pm If Goode and Williams don't play this season they won't count towards the cap correct? In which case those two might get an extended rehab period. With Mallins and Gallagher playing well they aren't short at 15.
They might be now.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51020058
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loretta
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta »

Tiglon wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:13 am
I'm sure they'll get compensation, which wont count to the cap if they haven't played a game.
I'm not so sure. From PRL again.

"WHAT GOES IN?

Amounts which are paid or payable (or in the case of a benefit in kind, provided or to be provided) directly or indirectly, onshore or offshore, by or on behalf of a Club or any Connected Party or Third Party of the Club, to or in respect of a Player or any Connected Party of the Player…..

Amounts that are Included

Salary, wage, fee, remuneration etc.
Bonus (match, win, year-end etc.)
National insurance
Loan (not paid back in full before end of SCY loan was made).
Child support / maintenance /school fees
Accommodation or holiday cost
Pension (incl. annuities)
Image Rights payments
Payment in connection with promotional, media or endorsement work
Payment for off-field activities for or on behalf of club
Signing on fee, transfer payment, relocation allowance or payment linked to transfer
Accommodation, holidays, cars, match tickets (other than 4 per match), clothing (other than training kit, official club blazers and other club wear), travel, membership fees, food and drink (other than at matches and training)
Payment in kind a player would not have received were not for his involvement with a Club
Redundancy/Compromise etc.
Agent Fees plus VAT & NI
Any 3rd Party & Connected Party (e.g. sponsor) payment unless demonstrated separate


Amounts that are Excluded

International match fees, bonuses, etc.
Legitimate and reasonable expenses
Player’s personal private medical insurance including Rugby Care scheme
Benefit Year (testimonial)
Education fees (e.g. university tuition fees, joinery course fees etc.) for the player
A season long Loan Player x 3 players
A player who is Injured for the entire season
"
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Tiglon
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon »

Well why would Sarries release all these players if their salaries still counted?

Either Sarries are monumentally stupid or the salaries won't count.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon »

Tiglon wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:51 pm Well why would Sarries release all these players if their salaries still counted?

Either Sarries are monumentally stupid or the salaries won't count.
I suppose option three is that the savings on their salaries for the rest of this year will be enough.
loretta
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta »

The fact that they've waited so long to do something about it (making the problem of the potential over-spend worse by the week), and they finally take action once Wray has gone, speaks volumes of the arrogance of the man. He obviously thought they could get away with it.
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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

The article posted states Clark’s has played 4 games this season
TomWeston
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by TomWeston »

"
A player who is Injured for the entire season
"


Which certainly doesn't mean that the player got no income thus far this season. I trust the players' insurers will be looking in depth into the validity of their injury payments.
Hot_Charlie
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Hot_Charlie »

LE18 wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:58 pm
Hot_Charlie wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:38 pm
LE18 wrote: Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:29 pm I seem to remember seeing pictures of our players with the title "sponsored by........" If a player is sponsored by an outside rich individual, or company, does his sponsorship count into the salary cap? What form does "sponsorship" consist of?
I think those sponsorships are no more than using the player as a vehicle for a sponsorship of the club, ie the money doesn’t go to the player.
I still don't understand, I thought it was possibly money, or is it housing, meals clothing etc?
No, as far as I understand the sponsor is paying the club for the right to be associated with that player (logo on the player profile on the website/programme etc).
loretta
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta »

TomWeston wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:45 pm "
A player who is Injured for the entire season
"


Which certainly doesn't mean that the player got no income thus far this season. I trust the players' insurers will be looking in depth into the validity of their injury payments.
Out of interest, the PRL define a season as June to June. Williams was injured at the World Cup, pick the bones out of that.
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sam16111986
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by sam16111986 »

TomWeston wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:45 pm "
A player who is Injured for the entire season
"


Which certainly doesn't mean that the player got no income thus far this season. I trust the players' insurers will be looking in depth into the validity of their injury payments.
There's a difference between not paid and doesn't count towards the salary cap.

Williams will probably count as a marquee player so not playing him might make little difference. Goode being given the season off will make a significant saving though the injury to Mallins will make that awkward.
loretta
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by loretta »

If Williams is marquee, it's of no help to Sarries cap problems to release him early, unless you can change the marquee mid-season (which I doubt). With him coming back to fitness, and other 15 injuries, why would they let him go if not to cut salary costs?
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ABClub
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by ABClub »

loretta wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:36 pm If Williams is marquee, it's of no help to Sarries cap problems to release him early, unless you can change the marquee mid-season (which I doubt). With him coming back to fitness, and other 15 injuries, why would they let him go if not to cut salary costs?
Rhys Carre is the only player eligible who would realistically replace Williams as second marquee. So it would remove Carre's wage from the cap but that will be a pittance compared to Sanjay. Perhaps they are in a position of every little helps though in terms of cutting cap for this season.
h's dad
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by h's dad »

sam16111986 wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 3:26 pm
TomWeston wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:45 pm "
A player who is Injured for the entire season
"


Which certainly doesn't mean that the player got no income thus far this season. I trust the players' insurers will be looking in depth into the validity of their injury payments.
There's a difference between not paid and doesn't count towards the salary cap.

Williams will probably count as a marquee player so not playing him might make little difference. Goode being given the season off will make a significant saving though the injury to Mallins will make that awkward.
Most people seem to think Farrell and Itoje are the marquees. I'm not sure about Itoje but I would be very surprised if Williams was one.
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h's dad
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by h's dad »

loretta wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:47 am Sorry if I'm being dim, but why don't players salaries count if they haven't played yet?
Surely, unless they are excluded by dint of injury dispensation, they're still being paid, hence part of the salary bill?

From the PRL regulations,

Part c of the definition of a player, "(c) who either plays rugby for that Club or is or who has been available to play rugby
for that Club at any point in the relevant Salary Cap Year; "
If you're being dim, then there are some completely blown bulbs about.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game
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