Saracens are relegated!

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GETHIN EXILE
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by GETHIN EXILE » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:14 pm

the only help with investments that a player on that sort of money needs is where to invest it

BFG
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BFG » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:32 pm

GETHIN EXILE wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:14 pm
the only help with investments that a player on that sort of money needs is where to invest it
You're not wrong.
The big flaw in the argument is that they are assisting the most well off.

Personally I believe this salary issue for English clubs is heightened by the rule that an England player must play in England.
If Farrell were to be allowed to go to France to earn silly money then it's space for another such as a (far more talented) Malins.
It's a restriction and clubs don't need restrictions.
Mind you I haven't got a huge amount of sympathy for Exeter either and their moaning about this saga considering that it's rumoured that they will be paying Hogg £550,000 a year.
How can Rowe moan about having to release home grown players when he is spending a silly amount on what is a flakey import in my opinion, and if Hogg is outside of the cap as a marquee then promote someone deserving from within instead and retain those home grown players.

Will S
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Will S » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:56 pm

strawclearer wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:46 am
I'll just chuck a couple of tweets in...

Guy Mercer: "For what it’s worth I disagree with the cap. If an owner wants to pay people let them pay. Risk for players is huge & people should earn as much as possible while they can. The cap squeezes the middle out of squads so teams load up on low paid kids and superstars."

In reply, Ellis Genge: "Ere ere, no cap - got academy kids earning absolute peanuts not being able to pay for accommodation or food for the month yet expected to be the next big thing and act professionally. It’s madness to me."
I get Genge's point but I don't know many professions where the 18 / 19 year old newbies don't struggle to make ends meet. It's the same in pretty much any profession - you join on peanuts (and hope to be the next big thing) and if you do make it, guess what, you make a very good living. I don't feel too sorry for the academy kids. I would have swapped my early years for doing what they do in a heartbeat.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:56 pm

strawclearer wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:46 am
I'll just chuck a couple of tweets in...

Guy Mercer: "For what it’s worth I disagree with the cap. If an owner wants to pay people let them pay. Risk for players is huge & people should earn as much as possible while they can. The cap squeezes the middle out of squads so teams load up on low paid kids and superstars."

In reply, Ellis Genge: "Ere ere, no cap - got academy kids earning absolute peanuts not being able to pay for accommodation or food for the month yet expected to be the next big thing and act professionally. It’s madness to me."
All very interesting and worthwhile opinions in terms of the salary cap. However irrelevant so far is the matter in hand is concerned. Which is about one club systematically cheating other clubs (and players) over a prolonged period of time on a legally binding agreement that they have signed.

Saracens cheating is not about player welfare, because they have undermined player welfare at the other eleven clubs by distorting the market in their favour. It is just cheating. Just call it for what it is.

RagingBull
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by RagingBull » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:12 pm

On Mercer's point, I don't agree with him.

Club rugby just isn't a big enough sport to support having no cap.

kk20gb30
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Saracens Issue Grounds For Appeal...

Post by kk20gb30 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:18 pm

After hasty consultation with their legal team , and in an effort to gain a quick resolution to any potential controversy Saracens RFC have issued the following statement and formal grounds for appeal against the recent Premiership Rugby ruling with regard to alleged Salary Cap infringements :

We misplaced the decimal point...

The confusion was caused by the uncertainty over Brexit....

Our accountants said it would be 'fine' (no pun intended)...

it wasn't our idea...

We got caught..(how did this get here ? Please remove N.W)..
.
What we actually meant to put in place was ... (to be confirmed at a much later date)...

They just enjoy playing for us...

We thought we were still covered by the 2015 cover up , err payment , err ...

There is a general election on Dec 12...

It wasn't us ..

We forgot to take into account the National Minimum Wage...

If the Salary Cap did not exist the rules could not have been broken (not that they were anyway)...

its all a misunderstanding...

This is victimization....

To follow this through would cause undoubted mental anguish and unnecessary strain to those players being subjected to what we regard as unwarranted and unjust public scrutiny - not to mention the huge financial implications for those involved - of which there is none...

They just needed second jobs to supplement their income...

is that really the time ?...


We will add more corroboration to our case as soon as we are able to (fabricate it )
Last edited by kk20gb30 on Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:02 pm, edited 3 times in total.

jgriffin
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by jgriffin » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:38 pm

BFG wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:32 pm
GETHIN EXILE wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:14 pm
the only help with investments that a player on that sort of money needs is where to invest it
You're not wrong.
The big flaw in the argument is that they are assisting the most well off.

Personally I believe this salary issue for English clubs is heightened by the rule that an England player must play in England.
If Farrell were to be allowed to go to France to earn silly money then it's space for another such as a (far more talented) Malins.
It's a restriction and clubs don't need restrictions.
Mind you I haven't got a huge amount of sympathy for Exeter either and their moaning about this saga considering that it's rumoured that they will be paying Hogg £550,000 a year.
How can Rowe moan about having to release home grown players when he is spending a silly amount on what is a flakey import in my opinion, and if Hogg is outside of the cap as a marquee then promote someone deserving from within instead and retain those home grown players.
The impetus for Hogg is the pressure on Rowe from the new money people within Chiefs who want European and local titles. I posted at the beginning of the season that the word was (via my Chiefs ST sibs) they wanted both top players and an international name head coach, and I got laughed at. It rankles with the parvenu posh in Exeter.
Chiefs have half-assed it in getting Hogg.
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Smudge
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Smudge » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:57 pm

The revue/appeal won't be the end of it. Newcastle, Bristol and Irish were relegated during the years in question and I
understand are poised to issue their own litigation. They lost millions in consequence and at least Newcastle can claim that their home and away defeats to Saracens contributed greatly to it.
As some action has been taken now (we all knew what was happening). As for fairness? Dean Richards was banned from rugby for three years for "bloodgate" and t it was only for that single offence. How can Wray be considered a fit and proper person to own and operate a Rugby Club when he has been cheating thus for years? Many times worse than Deano's offence? Surely he should be banned from the game entirely and for life? The club should suffer the same fate as Richmond, who's only crime was to became insolvent? The last time I heard, Saracens were over £50 million in debt and yet able to operate as they have been. They are an affront to the game.
A life long Tiger

sam16111986
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Re: Sacacens Issue Grounds For Appeal...

Post by sam16111986 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:00 pm

We promise to bring excellent loose leaf tea and an assortment of quality chocolate biscuits to the hearing.

WhitecapTiger
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Re: Sacacens Issue Grounds For Appeal...

Post by WhitecapTiger » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:00 pm

Maybe it was all a big Typo......

Like this title :smt002 :smt002 :smt003
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strawclearer
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Re: Sacacens Issue Grounds For Appeal...

Post by strawclearer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:04 pm

sam16111986 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:00 pm
We promise to bring excellent loose leaf tea and an assortment of quality chocolate biscuits to the hearing.
Grounds for appeal? They'd have more chance issuing grounds for coffee!
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h's dad
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by h's dad » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:14 pm

Will S wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:56 pm
strawclearer wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:46 am
I'll just chuck a couple of tweets in...

Guy Mercer: "For what it’s worth I disagree with the cap. If an owner wants to pay people let them pay. Risk for players is huge & people should earn as much as possible while they can. The cap squeezes the middle out of squads so teams load up on low paid kids and superstars."

In reply, Ellis Genge: "Ere ere, no cap - got academy kids earning absolute peanuts not being able to pay for accommodation or food for the month yet expected to be the next big thing and act professionally. It’s madness to me."
I get Genge's point but I don't know many professions where the 18 / 19 year old newbies don't struggle to make ends meet. It's the same in pretty much any profession - you join on peanuts (and hope to be the next big thing) and if you do make it, guess what, you make a very good living. I don't feel too sorry for the academy kids. I would have swapped my early years for doing what they do in a heartbeat.
I think they get plenty of good nutrition from the club as well.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

CitizenSmiff
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Re: Saracens Issue Grounds For Appeal...

Post by CitizenSmiff » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:49 pm

Wray's actual defence of 'Investments aren't income' isn't any less ludicrous than any of the ones listed here!

Cagey Tiger
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Re: Saracens Issue Grounds For Appeal...

Post by Cagey Tiger » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:17 pm

CitizenSmiff wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:49 pm
Wray's actual defence of 'Investments aren't income' isn't any less ludicrous than any of the ones listed here!
From what I've read, he said "investments arentsalary", therefore outside the salary cap. Splitting hairs and trying to get round the salary cap on a technicality. The cap is there to stop a few sugar daddies dominating the Premiership and to stop a death spiral as clubs pay more and more (that they cannot afford) on players, just to keep vaguely competitive. Other clubs generally (I hope) have adhered to the cap as it is seen as necessary for the longer term future of professional rugby in England. By trying to wriggle around it, Wray is putting himself and Sarries above the rest, potentially at the expense of everyone else.

Cagey Tiger
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Re: Saracens Issue Grounds For Appeal...

Post by Cagey Tiger » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:18 pm

Cagey Tiger wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:17 pm
CitizenSmiff wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:49 pm
Wray's actual defence of 'Investments aren't income' isn't any less ludicrous than any of the ones listed here!
From what I've read, he said "investments aren't salary", therefore outside the salary cap. Splitting hairs and trying to get round the salary cap on a technicality. The cap is there to stop a few sugar daddies dominating the Premiership and to stop a death spiral as clubs pay more and more (that they cannot afford) on players, just to keep vaguely competitive. Other clubs generally (I hope) have adhered to the cap as it is seen as necessary for the longer term future of professional rugby in England. By trying to wriggle around it, Wray is putting himself and Sarries above the rest, potentially at the expense of everyone else.

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