Saracens are relegated!

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Rizzo, Tigerbeat, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Post Reply
trendylfj
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1786
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:16 am
Location: MARKET HARBOROUGH

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by trendylfj » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:32 am

I would hope that the powers that be have already told Sarries what they have to do to get back within the cap and that they do that immediately so that they play no game over the cap. I suspect that there will be nothing done until the appeal is heard and tht clubs they play will have to suffer. If Wray really accepts the ruling but not the punishment which is what I understand is the case, he would not wait until after theIr appeal and risk further sanctions. Will he do that???? - of course not IMHO
Hehehehehehehehe

mol2
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3394
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 5:48 pm
Location: Cosby

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by mol2 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:50 am

It would be interesting to know if the appeal can also increase the punishment?

I suspect the outcome will be a reduced punishment in exchanged for prompt compliance.
Compliance likely meaning that the overpayments continue but through a much more convoluted route than the current rather blatant ones with the chairman as co-directors with the players concerned. (Were Sarries hoping that being so blatant would see the other clubs agreeing with them and scrapping the salary cap? Thus far some of the big clubs have come out an openly condemned them)

The status quo will continue the payments sufficiently hidden to satisfy some and beyond the point where it is easy to argue it is absolute proof of salary by another means.

Hot_Charlie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2784
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: Lincoln

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Hot_Charlie » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:54 am

It won’t. It’s a review of process so I can’t see any appetite to let them off.

The only way the punishment will change is through the disaster that would be the Courts.

Then we can all thank them for their desperate clamour to the top and their willingness to sacrifice the club game as we know it as the price.

strawclearer
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3958
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by strawclearer » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:46 am

I'll just chuck a couple of tweets in...

Guy Mercer: "For what it’s worth I disagree with the cap. If an owner wants to pay people let them pay. Risk for players is huge & people should earn as much as possible while they can. The cap squeezes the middle out of squads so teams load up on low paid kids and superstars."

In reply, Ellis Genge: "Ere ere, no cap - got academy kids earning absolute peanuts not being able to pay for accommodation or food for the month yet expected to be the next big thing and act professionally. It’s madness to me."
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
Stay Home>Protect The NHS>Save Lives

GETHIN EXILE
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by GETHIN EXILE » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:51 am

would either of them take a cut so that the youngsters would get higher salaries? in any business you earn more for longer service and experience

CitizenSmiff
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:53 am

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by CitizenSmiff » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:55 am

It's not a huge surprise that the players want to be paid more, but rugby is still a very niche sport and we can barely afford the wages we pay now. Though if our academy kids are going hungry that's an issue that absolutely dmust be addressed and right now.

BengalTiger
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 199
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:16 am

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BengalTiger » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:08 am

Shock horror players think unlimmited pay is the way forward, untill the club collapses under the weight of debts or the sugar daddy gets bored.
strawclearer wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:46 am
I'll just chuck a couple of tweets in...

Guy Mercer: "For what it’s worth I disagree with the cap. If an owner wants to pay people let them pay. Risk for players is huge & people should earn as much as possible while they can. The cap squeezes the middle out of squads so teams load up on low paid kids and superstars."

In reply, Ellis Genge: "Ere ere, no cap - got academy kids earning absolute peanuts not being able to pay for accommodation or food for the month yet expected to be the next big thing and act professionally. It’s madness to me."
How about this, the squad at each club handle the distribution of a set amount per year, then we would see if the top earners would share with the lads from the academy? no perhaps not.

Leicestertinytiger
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1748
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:13 am

BengalTiger wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:08 am
Shock horror players think unlimmited pay is the way forward, untill the club collapses under the weight of debts or the sugar daddy gets bored.
strawclearer wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:46 am
I'll just chuck a couple of tweets in...

Guy Mercer: "For what it’s worth I disagree with the cap. If an owner wants to pay people let them pay. Risk for players is huge & people should earn as much as possible while they can. The cap squeezes the middle out of squads so teams load up on low paid kids and superstars."

In reply, Ellis Genge: "Ere ere, no cap - got academy kids earning absolute peanuts not being able to pay for accommodation or food for the month yet expected to be the next big thing and act professionally. It’s madness to me."
How about this, the squad at each club handle the distribution of a set amount per year, then we would see if the top earners would share with the lads from the academy? no perhaps not.
Shock horror. Ask any employee and they will want more money. In comparison to the average wage rugby players do alright for themselves. Take away the wage cap and how many teams would go under and there would be a select few at the top each year. No one wants that.

simoscribbler
Top Cat
Top Cat
Posts: 61
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:35 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by simoscribbler » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:39 am

This and the partial sale of the game have, perhaps, broken the last real connection between the pro game and the grassroots sport that many of us grew up with.

One of Wray's justifications for co investment etc seems to be that it's all about player welfare, and that any competitive advantage is simply a happy by-product. Even if we accept that his motives are entirely honourable I just do not think that the current overall remuneration levels are sustainable, or even desirable. As others have said we are a minority sport, and clubs running huge deficits leads nowhere good.

Why not help academy players with university costs, make sure they have post rugby career plans in place, and then pay them well - perhaps in the 200-250k range for a top international, half that for a first teamer? That's good money for running about a paddock, and if they retired in their early thirties they'd be well set up - although they would need to work. And that would allow us to really look after youngsters within the current cap, and the people who dont make the grade or are injured early on - they're the ones who need help setting up businesses etc, not the top stars. That's what rugby values are about, surely?

After all, twenty five years ago top players all had jobs, and in the early days of pro rugby my kids were trained by first teamers at Tigers summer camps. And, a few years before that, it would have been a very brave bank robber who walked into a certain Harborough branch....
Last edited by simoscribbler on Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

teds
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 501
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:02 pm
Location: london

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by teds » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:59 am

As usual Genge makes a good point, I think it would make sense to agree a common minimum wage - perhaps linked to regional rental accommodation prices - for all premiership academies.

While we are looking at academy wages, maybe we should clarify which players have actually played in the academy rather than being retrospective members. Maybe even tie the allowance back to number of academy league fixtures they were in scope for, so we don’t get the kind of situation where a player is ‘signed for the academy’ a week before their 19th birthday and go straight into the A-League squad, but still qualify for the academy exemption from the cap.

fleabane
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5170
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:26 pm
Location: Occitanie

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by fleabane » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:26 pm

The Premiership as a whole lost about £30,000,000 last year.

Yeah, let’s pay those players whatever they want, so that the whole thing will go down the tubes more quickly!
Valhalla I am coming!

fleabane
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5170
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:26 pm
Location: Occitanie

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by fleabane » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:39 pm

Hypocrisy is in the air as Premiership rivals turn their backs on Saracens

The English champions have been left isolated by this week’s verdict, but there are mitigating factors and they do not deserve the tag of Premiership villains


Paul Rees

Saracens have never courted popularity, but they have never been more isolated than now. Their Premiership rivals have welcomed the draconian 35-point penalty and £5m fine (which will rise if legal costs are awarded against them) slapped on the English and European champions for breaching the league’s salary cap regulations over a three‑year period.

The Exeter chairman, Tony Rowe, will call for Saracens to be relegated when the Premiership board next meets in January. The Harlequins captain, Chris Robshaw, not one given to overreaction, said he found it hard to take now that success was found to have been built on cheating. Sale’s director of rugby, Steve Diamond – a former coach at Saracens – called on the club to remove the words “integrity” and “honesty” from their Allianz Park ground.

Chris Boyd, Northampton’s director of rugby, said a salary cap demanded sacrifices – although he also sympathised with Sarries’ predicament. They have attempted to find ways of dealing with the pay explosion that comes when academy products on small salaries quickly become England players on significant wages.

Saracens salary-cap breach stamps an asterisk on a great club and the game | Robert Kitson


As holders, Saracens were due to be centre stage at the launch of this season’s European Champions Cup in Cardiff on Wednesday. Participating teams are obliged to send their head coach and captain (or agreed alternatives) to the event or face being fined, but they declined to attend, 24 hours after Premiership Rugby announced the result of a five-day hearing into the alleged salary cap breaches. Saracens claim they feared turning what was meant to be a look forward into a sideshow, but they dominated it anyway.

The points deduction, which initially dropped Saracens to the bottom of the Premiership on -26, was provisionally rescinded when the club announced it would appeal. Saracens had based their defence on a contention the cap had not been breached, because co-investing with players in businesses did not constitute salary. The club also claimed there had been no attempt to mislead in making financial arrangements with leading players, but the next step will be to challenge the legal validity of the cap under competition law.

It may take a high-court judge to rule on that, but the club has grounds for appeal on “procedural unfairness”. The 35-point deduction had to be agreed by the Rugby Football Union which, even though it apparently received advice that the wording on the Premiership’s salary cap regulation was “sloppy”, did not withhold its consent or even refer the matter to the professional game board. It decided the matter should be left to the clubs, a decision that may come to haunt the governing body, should the club that provides England with its core group, and which has long had a policy of developing homegrown players, loses its elevated status.

There were nine Saracens players in the wider England squad that reached last week’s World Cup final, including Elliot Daly and Jack Singleton, who have yet to play for the club after signing in the close season. Four came through the academy system; Ben Spencer signed as a 19-year-old from Cambridge and the Vunipola brothers joined when they were 20. Bath, one of the most vocal clubs against Saracens in Premiership meetings, had five England players in Japan: three who joined from London Irish and none of whom they developed.

One rival director of rugby has called for Saracens to remove the words ‘honesty’ and ‘integrity’ from their Allianz Park home.
One rival director of rugby has called for Saracens to remove the words ‘honesty’ and ‘integrity’ from their Allianz Park home. Photograph: Steven Paston/PA Archive/PA Images
Champions Cup organisers believe Saracens will soon begin deregistering players from the group stage, beyond Liam Williams and Alex Goode, who will not play again until the start of the Six Nations at least. Having lost the hearing, Sarries have to trim the wage bill to avoid breaching the cap again this season. It is too risky to wait until the outcome of an appeal that may not be heard for months.

When players such as Owen Farrell and Maro Itoje came through the club’s system, they were paid a nominal wage. Both were capped early and their salaries increased significantly. The club’s owner, Nigel Wray, who took over at the start of the professional era in 1995, has long raged at the failure of the salary cap to properly compensate clubs who face pay explosions after serving the national cause. The policy allows for the first £50,000 of a homegrown international’s salary to be excluded from the cap, and the £228m deal between the Premiership and the RFU means wages are subsidised. All clubs benefit, even if they do not have a single player in the England squad.

Then there is the issue of welfare. The chances are that even if Rowe gets his wish and Saracens are relegated, their tightly knit group of players would remain, potentially suspending their England careers. One club owner complained recently he was looking to get rid of a big-name signing who had hardly played because of injuries. There was no consideration of the player’s future or the fact his inactivity was involuntary. That does not happen at Saracens.

Saracens judgment is a spectacle of a sport robustly applying its rules | David Conn


It does not excuse their failure to clear schemes such as the co-investment programme with the Premiership before going ahead with them, no matter that they were not hidden. Four years ago, Saracens were among a number of clubs being investigated for salary cap breaches, but no action was taken because there was an acceptance more than a few were at it. The same outcome had been reached in 2010 when those abiding by the cap were found to be in a small minority.

There is more than a whiff of hypocrisy in the air this week. Where will the £5m fine go? Yet to be decided, but the chances are it will be shared out between the other 12 Premiership Rugby shareholders. Yes, Saracens have been found to be in breach of the cap, but were they bending the rules rather than breaking them? Under the two marquee-player stipulation, there is no cap on a club’s wage bill.

As for the club’s success being tainted, the players would very probably have stayed anyway, just as they did at Wasps in the 2000s when they could have earned more elsewhere. It is a club that looks out for its players, as well as looks after them. Wray will not want to walk away, but if he did, England would be the first casualty.


All from today’s Guardian
Valhalla I am coming!

h's dad
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2540
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:19 pm
Location: In front of pc

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by h's dad » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:48 pm

simoscribbler wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:39 am

... pay them well - perhaps in the 200-250k range for a top international, half that for a first teamer? That's good money for running about a paddock, and if they retired in their early thirties they'd be well set up - although they would need to work. And that would allow us to really look after youngsters within the current cap, and the people who dont make the grade or are injured early on - they're the ones who need help setting up businesses etc, not the top stars. That's what rugby values are about, surely?
Top internationals tend to be the marquee players who are on double that and outside of the cap. Regular first teamers are also generally paid in the range that you suggest. Absolutely agree on helping the rest, in fact, all of them with advice and assistance in planning etc.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

jgriffin
Super User
Super User
Posts: 7112
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:49 pm
Location: On the edge of oblivion

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by jgriffin » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:03 pm

fleabane wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:39 pm
Hypocrisy is in the air as Premiership rivals turn their backs on Saracens

The English champions have been left isolated by this week’s verdict, but there are mitigating factors and they do not deserve the tag of Premiership villains


Paul Rees

Saracens have never courted popularity, but they have never been more isolated than now. Their Premiership rivals have welcomed the draconian 35-point penalty and £5m fine (which will rise if legal costs are awarded against them) slapped on the English and European champions for breaching the league’s salary cap regulations over a three‑year period.

The Exeter chairman, Tony Rowe, will call for Saracens to be relegated when the Premiership board next meets in January. The Harlequins captain, Chris Robshaw, not one given to overreaction, said he found it hard to take now that success was found to have been built on cheating. Sale’s director of rugby, Steve Diamond – a former coach at Saracens – called on the club to remove the words “integrity” and “honesty” from their Allianz Park ground.

Chris Boyd, Northampton’s director of rugby, said a salary cap demanded sacrifices – although he also sympathised with Sarries’ predicament. They have attempted to find ways of dealing with the pay explosion that comes when academy products on small salaries quickly become England players on significant wages.

Saracens salary-cap breach stamps an asterisk on a great club and the game | Robert Kitson


As holders, Saracens were due to be centre stage at the launch of this season’s European Champions Cup in Cardiff on Wednesday. Participating teams are obliged to send their head coach and captain (or agreed alternatives) to the event or face being fined, but they declined to attend, 24 hours after Premiership Rugby announced the result of a five-day hearing into the alleged salary cap breaches. Saracens claim they feared turning what was meant to be a look forward into a sideshow, but they dominated it anyway.

The points deduction, which initially dropped Saracens to the bottom of the Premiership on -26, was provisionally rescinded when the club announced it would appeal. Saracens had based their defence on a contention the cap had not been breached, because co-investing with players in businesses did not constitute salary. The club also claimed there had been no attempt to mislead in making financial arrangements with leading players, but the next step will be to challenge the legal validity of the cap under competition law.

It may take a high-court judge to rule on that, but the club has grounds for appeal on “procedural unfairness”. The 35-point deduction had to be agreed by the Rugby Football Union which, even though it apparently received advice that the wording on the Premiership’s salary cap regulation was “sloppy”, did not withhold its consent or even refer the matter to the professional game board. It decided the matter should be left to the clubs, a decision that may come to haunt the governing body, should the club that provides England with its core group, and which has long had a policy of developing homegrown players, loses its elevated status.

There were nine Saracens players in the wider England squad that reached last week’s World Cup final, including Elliot Daly and Jack Singleton, who have yet to play for the club after signing in the close season. Four came through the academy system; Ben Spencer signed as a 19-year-old from Cambridge and the Vunipola brothers joined when they were 20. Bath, one of the most vocal clubs against Saracens in Premiership meetings, had five England players in Japan: three who joined from London Irish and none of whom they developed.

One rival director of rugby has called for Saracens to remove the words ‘honesty’ and ‘integrity’ from their Allianz Park home.
One rival director of rugby has called for Saracens to remove the words ‘honesty’ and ‘integrity’ from their Allianz Park home. Photograph: Steven Paston/PA Archive/PA Images
Champions Cup organisers believe Saracens will soon begin deregistering players from the group stage, beyond Liam Williams and Alex Goode, who will not play again until the start of the Six Nations at least. Having lost the hearing, Sarries have to trim the wage bill to avoid breaching the cap again this season. It is too risky to wait until the outcome of an appeal that may not be heard for months.

When players such as Owen Farrell and Maro Itoje came through the club’s system, they were paid a nominal wage. Both were capped early and their salaries increased significantly. The club’s owner, Nigel Wray, who took over at the start of the professional era in 1995, has long raged at the failure of the salary cap to properly compensate clubs who face pay explosions after serving the national cause. The policy allows for the first £50,000 of a homegrown international’s salary to be excluded from the cap, and the £228m deal between the Premiership and the RFU means wages are subsidised. All clubs benefit, even if they do not have a single player in the England squad.

Then there is the issue of welfare. The chances are that even if Rowe gets his wish and Saracens are relegated, their tightly knit group of players would remain, potentially suspending their England careers. One club owner complained recently he was looking to get rid of a big-name signing who had hardly played because of injuries. There was no consideration of the player’s future or the fact his inactivity was involuntary. That does not happen at Saracens.

Saracens judgment is a spectacle of a sport robustly applying its rules | David Conn


It does not excuse their failure to clear schemes such as the co-investment programme with the Premiership before going ahead with them, no matter that they were not hidden. Four years ago, Saracens were among a number of clubs being investigated for salary cap breaches, but no action was taken because there was an acceptance more than a few were at it. The same outcome had been reached in 2010 when those abiding by the cap were found to be in a small minority.

There is more than a whiff of hypocrisy in the air this week. Where will the £5m fine go? Yet to be decided, but the chances are it will be shared out between the other 12 Premiership Rugby shareholders. Yes, Saracens have been found to be in breach of the cap, but were they bending the rules rather than breaking them? Under the two marquee-player stipulation, there is no cap on a club’s wage bill.

As for the club’s success being tainted, the players would very probably have stayed anyway, just as they did at Wasps in the 2000s when they could have earned more elsewhere. It is a club that looks out for its players, as well as looks after them. Wray will not want to walk away, but if he did, England would be the first casualty.


All from today’s Guardian
All the excuses in the world do not mitigate for the fact, known to all and sundry for 5-7 years, that they were initially buying success which then helped with the longterm attraction of talent and subsequent development through the Academy.
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.

BFG
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3042
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BFG » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:10 pm

It's really difficult to support these particular investments and have any sympathy for a club that is rumoured to pay Farrell £750,000 a year.
On top of that is England money and anything else such as sponsorships.
Does a player earning that amount of money really need help with investments, I think not!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ads, Bing [Bot], Crofty, johnthegriff, JP14, longlivethecrumbie and 2 guests