Saracens are relegated!

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strawclearer
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by strawclearer » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:14 pm

Another 'high profile' call - and a powerful argument - for the removal of trophies, titles and medals...

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... ton-828640
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:16 pm

as a player there is no way I'm handing back a medal I'd won

BengalTiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BengalTiger » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:29 pm

I cannot absolve the players having a share of the blame from this, players at other clubs are commenting it was common currency in the changing rooms that it was considered impossible to build the Sarries sqad under the cap, so to say the Sarries players are inocent victims is streching credulity a bit, they won the medals by corporate cheating so are tarnished, would they have won those matches without a full international bench to call on?

daktari
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by daktari » Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:52 pm

Chobbsy wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:55 pm
daktari wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:24 pm
Sarries have influenced Europe as well, enticing plays away from Scottish, Welsh clubs etc, reducing their ability to compete at the top level
sorry I am not buying that, Scottish, Welsh and Irish (provinces) are only really concerned with Europe where it has already been stated that there is no salary cap, I agree totally about the Premiership but I have no sympathy for all the French and regional sides in Europe
but they have limited finance, by Sarries waving wonga at players they entice them away from their domestic squad.
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mol2
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by mol2 » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:20 pm

strawclearer wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:14 pm
Another 'high profile' call - and a powerful argument - for the removal of trophies, titles and medals...

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... ton-828640
Whilst he makes a good point it is tainted with delusions about how good Quins are/were.
Harlequins thought they were propping up England??

Were those players were capable of propping up England?

How often have we seen Quins players over represented in England sides? Far too often in my humble opinion. Proximity to Twickenham and the London press spring to mind.

voice of the crumbie
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by voice of the crumbie » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:34 pm

strawclearer wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:14 pm
My understanding is that the reason Tigers made no statement was a perfectly honourable one.
My understanding also. If I recall rightly the clubs were supposed to have agreed that the matter was being settled behind closed doors and there would be nothing released into the public domain. Some clubs reneged on that but Tigers didn't.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Tiglon » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:39 pm

Coops wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:35 pm
Leicestertinytiger wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:06 am
kpj tiger wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:47 am
I think this could have opened Pandora's box, just a quick search on Companies House and Melani Nanai (Worcs), Jordan Taufua (Tigers), Sekope Kepu (London Irish) and Robert Du Preez (Sale) all have promotions companies that were set up in the last few months which coincides with their signings. The company names are also very similar to some of the Sarries ones that were found to be dodgy, Melani Nanai's is MN93 Limited, Sekope Kepu's is SK3 Promotions and Robert Du Preez's is RDP10 Promotions.

I've also just found Malakai Fekitoa (Wasps) and Owen Franks (Northampton) have similar "promotions" companies
Nothing wrong with a business enterprise outside of rugby or one that handles players activities outside of their clubs. For example an income from commercial events, image rights, sponsorships etc.
Exactly, image rights and commercial activities.Take a look at TER LLP (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/OC311880) - this is the partnership which handles the image rights for England players.
Paying players image rights through a company is only legal if the amount is realistic in comparison to what their image rights might be worth. For example, paying Melani Nanai's company £500k a year for his image rights might be seen as hugely inflated and HMRC might therefore see this as salary disguised as image rights to evade tax. Some football players and clubs have been caught out on this and successfully prosecuted in recent years. From what I hear, some rugby clubs (including Saracens) are treading a very thin line on this and there is a very real prospect that they and some of their players could be breaking the law.

This is something you'll likely hear more about over the next few years, I've no doubt someone in the rugby world will push it too far and pay the price - after all, most rugby players' image rights are surely worth very little.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:12 pm

mol2 wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:20 pm
strawclearer wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:14 pm
Another 'high profile' call - and a powerful argument - for the removal of trophies, titles and medals...

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... ton-828640
Whilst he makes a good point it is tainted with delusions about how good Quins are/were.
Harlequins thought they were propping up England??

Were those players were capable of propping up England?

How often have we seen Quins players over represented in England sides? Far too often in my humble opinion. Proximity to Twickenham and the London press spring to mind.
I think the point Kingston is making is that if Saracens argue that they are 'propping up England' now, there is nothing unique in that. Quins did have a core of England players, who had been developed internally and when salary increases were necessary it meant that they had to let players go to keep within the cap. He is absolutely right to say that Saracens stuck two fingers up to the league & 6N in 2010-2011. They had 1 player - David Strettle - in the England Squad. Tigers had 7, Saints 6. State Francais had more players in the England squad. Nigel Wray did it to win the league - stuff everyone else. If everyone did that wouldn't have an England team or a 6N. Kingston is right to refer to his time at Richmond. What was their punishment because of a major shareholder pulling out. Multi-league relegation.

Let's by blunt - Saracens have had a parasitic relationship with other premier clubs for nearly a decade. That is why other clubs have been so muted in their praise over the years, and why the clubs are coming out so strongly now.

I've banged on about this for years. The thing that concerns me is why supposedly serious rugby journalists such as Jones, Cleary, Slot, Kitson et al have been so reluctant to do so.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by jgriffin » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:14 pm

BengalTiger wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:29 pm
I cannot absolve the players having a share of the blame from this, players at other clubs are commenting it was common currency in the changing rooms that it was considered impossible to build the Sarries sqad under the cap, so to say the Sarries players are inocent victims is streching credulity a bit, they won the medals by corporate cheating so are tarnished, would they have won those matches without a full international bench to call on?
Baxter's argument is that they would not have won some other matches and therefore the final placings in the league may well have been quite different i.e. they distorted the whole competition over three seasons. He does not think relegation is a solution, i.e. there is no real solution.
Rowe has the money at his disposal to buy big, but chose to remain within the cap (apart from all the scams all clubs pull) and invest in the ground, academy, etc.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by ABClub » Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:51 pm

strawclearer wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:14 pm
Another 'high profile' call - and a powerful argument - for the removal of trophies, titles and medals...

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... ton-828640
Given there is nothing in the salary cap regs about removal of trophies, it's not going to happen. Sarries knew the rules when they signed up to the cap. Just as importantly everyone knew the punishments in the regs as well. All clubs unanimously signed up to the cap.

Demanding punishments not included in the regs all clubs knowingly signed up to is as ridiculous as Saracens wishing to be exempt from the rules they knowingly signed up to.

CitizenSmiff
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by CitizenSmiff » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:12 pm

They're in more trouble for not showing up the the Champions Cup launch/photo shoot today.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by ABClub » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:19 pm

CitizenSmiff wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:12 pm
They're in more trouble for not showing up the the Champions Cup launch/photo shoot today.
There have been a few rumours of Wray considering putting the club up for sale. Given Sarries are in serious debt from redeveloping Allianz Park so if Wray walks they will likely fold.

Dr H Flashman MBE
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Dr H Flashman MBE » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:22 pm

Having stood in the Shed year on year as a Tigers fan I would imagine that the reception for Sarries will be hostile and cutting to say the least.
I mentioned a few pages ago what the Exeter owner said about missing out on prize money. There is going to be an awful lot of pressure to appease the other teams I feel. But if the Premier League start to punish them out of their remit then it will collapse.
I personal think they will have 50% of the points deduction suspended and the fine reduced due to promises to get below the cap by the end of the season.
I am no Sarries fan however there are people’s livelihoods at stake. Not the players as such but the admin staff, ground staff and catering staff. They don’t deserve to be binned off.
There is never any points for 2nd place...

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Noggs » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:05 pm

Dr H Flashman MBE wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:22 pm

I am no Sarries fan however there are people’s livelihoods at stake. Not the players as such but the admin staff, ground staff and catering staff. They don’t deserve to be binned off.
Isn't that akin to saying the man who robs your home should be allowed to go free because he has a family to support?

I also feel sorry for those on the sidelines who are blameless but Saracens have gained honors and financially by deliberately devising schemes to bypass the cap and as such they damage other clubs who abide by the rules both in fact and in spirit.

Sorry, but as far as Nigel Wray and his board are concerned I have absolutely no sympathy.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by strawclearer » Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:23 pm

voice of the crumbie wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:34 pm
strawclearer wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:14 pm
My understanding is that the reason Tigers made no statement was a perfectly honourable one.
My understanding also. If I recall rightly the clubs were supposed to have agreed that the matter was being settled behind closed doors and there would be nothing released into the public domain. Some clubs reneged on that but Tigers didn't.
:smt023
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
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