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TigerBoy1880
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by TigerBoy1880 »

Chobbsy wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:48 am
teds wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:39 pm
nasher wrote: Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:05 pm I am very amused by some of the comments in the press( origin unknown) that the the players involved were unaware and completely innocent, they received the money, either they have too much or are thick. Guessing the extent of the abuse I cannot see how any other premiership club can afford the players involved without a similar scheme. Wrays appeal will succeed.
I’ve got sympathy with the players. If your employer offered you a coinvestment scheme and assured you he’d checked it out with his lawyers and tax accountants and also already declared it to the salary cap manager, are you sure you wouldn’t have taken him up on it?

That said, I never fully bought the idea that Sarries were only doing this to look after their players. The co-investments only seem to be offered to the star players, unless the scope of this actually extends much further than has so far been discovered.
Absolutely, you cannot point the finger at the players, they are not responsible for what other players earn or how much of the cap is or isn't left.
I’m not sure. Surely at some point, a couple of the players or agents when being approached by Sarries must have realised what the club is doing is wrong and then go to Premiership Rugby to ask the question.
Greenwhiteandred
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Greenwhiteandred »

Can’t see why there would be any tax issues - co-investment property companies with the senior players would have to file tax returns. Any surreptitious payments to players through Sarries would still be tax deductible even if they weren’t declared to the salary cap authorities. The only dodgy element from a tax perspective was if players or families were paid through UK resident companies (other than Sarries) where it could be proved that the payments were not wholly & exclusively for the purposes of the business that the company was engaged in AND the company tried to deduct the expense on its tax computation.
LittleBigG
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by LittleBigG »

Leicestertinytiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:33 amThe funny thing is in my opinion is they never even had to cheat. You take out some high earners say hypothetically Figallo, Skelton, L Williams and Taylor, they still would have won the league with the players they have.
And of course this is why it is absolutely impossible to award the titles to another team. Strip them of them, maybe, but because it is a team game and a league, and not for example, an individual competition (e.g. 100m sprint), there are far, far too many permutations to make any assumptions.

Given the size of their squad, I would be interested to see how many players they had that either didn't play any games, or only played one or two - they could potentially have coped without them being there yet they were still contributing to the cap!
kpj tiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by kpj tiger »

I think this could have opened Pandora's box, just a quick search on Companies House and Melani Nanai (Worcs), Jordan Taufua (Tigers), Sekope Kepu (London Irish) and Robert Du Preez (Sale) all have promotions companies that were set up in the last few months which coincides with their signings. The company names are also very similar to some of the Sarries ones that were found to be dodgy, Melani Nanai's is MN93 Limited, Sekope Kepu's is SK3 Promotions and Robert Du Preez's is RDP10 Promotions.

I've also just found Malakai Fekitoa (Wasps) and Owen Franks (Northampton) have similar "promotions" companies
Leicestertinytiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Leicestertinytiger »

kpj tiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:47 am I think this could have opened Pandora's box, just a quick search on Companies House and Melani Nanai (Worcs), Jordan Taufua (Tigers), Sekope Kepu (London Irish) and Robert Du Preez (Sale) all have promotions companies that were set up in the last few months which coincides with their signings. The company names are also very similar to some of the Sarries ones that were found to be dodgy, Melani Nanai's is MN93 Limited, Sekope Kepu's is SK3 Promotions and Robert Du Preez's is RDP10 Promotions.

I've also just found Malakai Fekitoa (Wasps) and Owen Franks (Northampton) have similar "promotions" companies
Nothing wrong with a business enterprise outside of rugby or one that handles players activities outside of their clubs. For example an income from commercial events, image rights, sponsorships etc.

The problem arises when the companies profit is linked directly from the club or club’s owners. That’s to with the contract between PRC and the clubs in which Saracens broke regulation 2.3 (I) (a) in knowingly exploiting loopholes.

Same with people questioning the players and HMRC, nothing to do with them. The companies are all UK registered, filing their yearly accounts and paying their taxes. Did question this with a friend who’s a tax expert and said their could be an implication with the Saracens players as it may be a non-declared company benefit which could be taxable, but proving that wouldn’t be worth the cost. Normally an investment loan from your employer would be taxable, and using separate limited companies could be trying to circumvent that.
Last edited by Leicestertinytiger on Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
johns12
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by johns12 »

Saracens should be stripped of the titles they ‘won’.
What they did was to enhance their performance. In many other sports (cycling, track and field athletics), titles and medals are taken away for using enhancing products.
I see no difference (IMHO).
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by kpj tiger »

Leicestertinytiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:06 am
kpj tiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:47 am I think this could have opened Pandora's box, just a quick search on Companies House and Melani Nanai (Worcs), Jordan Taufua (Tigers), Sekope Kepu (London Irish) and Robert Du Preez (Sale) all have promotions companies that were set up in the last few months which coincides with their signings. The company names are also very similar to some of the Sarries ones that were found to be dodgy, Melani Nanai's is MN93 Limited, Sekope Kepu's is SK3 Promotions and Robert Du Preez's is RDP10 Promotions.

I've also just found Malakai Fekitoa (Wasps) and Owen Franks (Northampton) have similar "promotions" companies
Nothing wrong with a business enterprise outside of rugby or one that handles players activities outside of their clubs. For example an income from commercial events, image rights, sponsorships etc.

The problem arises when the companies profit is linked directly from the club or club’s owners. That’s to with the contract between PRC and the clubs in which Saracens broke regulation 2.3 (I) (a) in knowingly exploiting loopholes.

Same with people questioning the players and HMRC, nothing to do with them. The companies are all UK registered, filing their yearly accounts and paying their taxes. Did question this with a friend who’s a tax expert and said their could be an implication with the Saracens players as it may be a non-declared company benefit which could be taxable, but proving that wouldn’t be worth the cost. Normally an investment loan from your employer would be taxable, and using separate limited companies could be trying to circumvent that.
I'm sure most of them are above board and without seeing the club accounts you wouldn't be able to prove anything anyway, that said it wouldn't surprise me if Saracens aren't the only club using this "loophole"
Leicestertinytiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Leicestertinytiger »

kpj tiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:31 am
Leicestertinytiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:06 am
kpj tiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:47 am I think this could have opened Pandora's box, just a quick search on Companies House and Melani Nanai (Worcs), Jordan Taufua (Tigers), Sekope Kepu (London Irish) and Robert Du Preez (Sale) all have promotions companies that were set up in the last few months which coincides with their signings. The company names are also very similar to some of the Sarries ones that were found to be dodgy, Melani Nanai's is MN93 Limited, Sekope Kepu's is SK3 Promotions and Robert Du Preez's is RDP10 Promotions.

I've also just found Malakai Fekitoa (Wasps) and Owen Franks (Northampton) have similar "promotions" companies
Nothing wrong with a business enterprise outside of rugby or one that handles players activities outside of their clubs. For example an income from commercial events, image rights, sponsorships etc.

The problem arises when the companies profit is linked directly from the club or club’s owners. That’s to with the contract between PRC and the clubs in which Saracens broke regulation 2.3 (I) (a) in knowingly exploiting loopholes.

Same with people questioning the players and HMRC, nothing to do with them. The companies are all UK registered, filing their yearly accounts and paying their taxes. Did question this with a friend who’s a tax expert and said their could be an implication with the Saracens players as it may be a non-declared company benefit which could be taxable, but proving that wouldn’t be worth the cost. Normally an investment loan from your employer would be taxable, and using separate limited companies could be trying to circumvent that.
I'm sure most of them are above board and without seeing the club accounts you wouldn't be able to prove anything anyway, that said it wouldn't surprise me if Saracens aren't the only club using this "loophole"
There’s no loophole for most players. Let’s just say Dan Cole is getting paid by Tigers. He also has his company to handle his income from sponsorships, imagine rights and stuff everything is fine. Files his taxes correctly no problem.

Owen Farrell has a company. That company’s money is solely from Nigel Wray for investment purposes. Therefore , this is seen to be exploiting a loophole to get round the salary cap. Therefore, this breaches the contractual agreement between clubs and PRC and hence the fine and point deduction.

Would have been a much more interesting legal case if the money wasn’t from Nigel Wray directly, but one of his business associates with no connection to Saracens officially. If anything Wray was too arrogant in doing it himself, especially given his connections.

I’ve heard rumours that clubs are paying overinflated image rights to players to top up wages. This being all of the clubs but you would hope they are liaising with the salary cap officials. Also heard rumours that there was potentially a third club implicated in the 2015 non-disclosure settlement for potential breaches, could have been us. I know the clubs it 100% wasn’t and we aren’t on that list.
kpj tiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by kpj tiger »

Leicestertinytiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:40 am
kpj tiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:31 am
Leicestertinytiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:06 am

Nothing wrong with a business enterprise outside of rugby or one that handles players activities outside of their clubs. For example an income from commercial events, image rights, sponsorships etc.

The problem arises when the companies profit is linked directly from the club or club’s owners. That’s to with the contract between PRC and the clubs in which Saracens broke regulation 2.3 (I) (a) in knowingly exploiting loopholes.

Same with people questioning the players and HMRC, nothing to do with them. The companies are all UK registered, filing their yearly accounts and paying their taxes. Did question this with a friend who’s a tax expert and said their could be an implication with the Saracens players as it may be a non-declared company benefit which could be taxable, but proving that wouldn’t be worth the cost. Normally an investment loan from your employer would be taxable, and using separate limited companies could be trying to circumvent that.
I'm sure most of them are above board and without seeing the club accounts you wouldn't be able to prove anything anyway, that said it wouldn't surprise me if Saracens aren't the only club using this "loophole"
There’s no loophole for most players. Let’s just say Dan Cole is getting paid by Tigers. He also has his company to handle his income from sponsorships, imagine rights and stuff everything is fine. Files his taxes correctly no problem.

Owen Farrell has a company. That company’s money is solely from Nigel Wray for investment purposes. Therefore , this is seen to be exploiting a loophole to get round the salary cap. Therefore, this breaches the contractual agreement between clubs and PRC and hence the fine and point deduction.

Would have been a much more interesting legal case if the money wasn’t from Nigel Wray directly, but one of his business associates with no connection to Saracens officially. If anything Wray was too arrogant in doing it himself, especially given his connections.

I’ve heard rumours that clubs are paying overinflated image rights to players to top up wages. This being all of the clubs but you would hope they are liaising with the salary cap officials. Also heard rumours that there was potentially a third club implicated in the 2015 non-disclosure settlement for potential breaches, could have been us. I know the clubs it 100% wasn’t and we aren’t on that list.
3 Clubs didn't release statements when the 2015 settlement happened, from my knowledge that was Sarries, Bath and Tigers, make of that what you will
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by strawclearer »

My understanding is that the reason Tigers made no statement was a perfectly honourable one.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Jacko27 »

"... Sarries, Bath and Tigers make of that what you will". The three bottom clubs (including the points penalty)!
rdracup
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by rdracup »

Accepting for the moment that clubs, including Tigers, pushed the boundaries up to 2015, Sarries/Wray's two finger approach post 2015 deserves all it gets.

I saw Bracken trying to equate Bloodgate to this - saying the transgression was of a similar order. It was not. Cheating to win 1 game vs cheating to compete at the very top for 3 years and 60 plus games is very different.

Re: Relegation

It is too hard to relegate them now - appeal pending - 4 games played in RFU championship and 3 in Prem already. Add to this there is too much fixture congestion if say Newcastle replaced them. Perhaps the Prem becomes an 11 team league (after the appeal) this season and results to date are scrubbed but is that what we want - hits club finances when Sarries are away with cancelled fixtures.

Also that would leave Sarries only playing in Europe with the anomaly that they could win it with less league demands.

If they know they are going down then maybe all their league games become meaningless and that distorts the game and attitude. Not a good outcome either

At lease with -35 points they have something to play for and they will turn up to a hostile crowd
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Coops »

Leicestertinytiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:06 am
kpj tiger wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:47 am I think this could have opened Pandora's box, just a quick search on Companies House and Melani Nanai (Worcs), Jordan Taufua (Tigers), Sekope Kepu (London Irish) and Robert Du Preez (Sale) all have promotions companies that were set up in the last few months which coincides with their signings. The company names are also very similar to some of the Sarries ones that were found to be dodgy, Melani Nanai's is MN93 Limited, Sekope Kepu's is SK3 Promotions and Robert Du Preez's is RDP10 Promotions.

I've also just found Malakai Fekitoa (Wasps) and Owen Franks (Northampton) have similar "promotions" companies
Nothing wrong with a business enterprise outside of rugby or one that handles players activities outside of their clubs. For example an income from commercial events, image rights, sponsorships etc.
Exactly, image rights and commercial activities.Take a look at TER LLP (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/OC311880) - this is the partnership which handles the image rights for England players.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by daktari »

Sarries have influenced Europe as well, enticing plays away from Scottish, Welsh clubs etc, reducing their ability to compete at the top level
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Chobbsy »

daktari wrote: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:24 pm Sarries have influenced Europe as well, enticing plays away from Scottish, Welsh clubs etc, reducing their ability to compete at the top level
sorry I am not buying that, Scottish, Welsh and Irish (provinces) are only really concerned with Europe where it has already been stated that there is no salary cap, I agree totally about the Premiership but I have no sympathy for all the French and regional sides in Europe
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