Saracens are relegated!

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RichieB
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by RichieB » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:13 pm

So, they admit to being guilty but just don't want to accept the penalty?

anz3001
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by anz3001 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:27 pm

RichieB wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:13 pm
So, they admit to being guilty but just don't want to accept the penalty?
They admit to an 'oversight', have cooperated, and volunteered information that wasn't asked of them. All quite convenient, as the investigation has found.

Noggs
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Noggs » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:29 pm

There is no excuse for this. It was very clearly a scheme to make payments to player outside of the cap and even if they thought it was 'legal' it was a 'legal' way of avoiding the rules and therefore cheating. I have no sympathy for any of those involved. It akin to stealing in that you are depriving those who follow the rules of both honors and associated financial rewards.

In accordance with the hearings findings and assuming they do not change to my mind Nigel Wray has shown himself to be a person unfit to run a Premiership club. If I was the chairman of Tigers or any other Premiership club I would not be happy at having to welcome him and administer the normal hospitality, nor to receive the same at an away fixture. It will be interesting to see if he turns up at Glos.

The whole matter is not in the spirit of the game, nor does it meet the professional standards you would rightly expect.

Any review should be time limited. :smt009
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cheltexile
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by cheltexile » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:35 pm

My issue around the 'oversight' thing is that if this really was a legitamate business investment (to them) that they believe it was absolutely above board, they would have disclosed it in its totality as and when it happened, as there is no reason not to. The reality is it took the Daily Mail actually doing some real journalism for once to uncover it all, and its only then that they 'volunteered' the information (and not even all of it!). It absolutely stinks, so I'm not surprised that the panel threw the kitchen sink at them.

CitizenSmiff
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by CitizenSmiff » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:54 pm

Sarries' defence according to the finding was ludicrous, essentially that they did break the salary cap but that the cap itself is unfair because it's a restraint on their trade. Why they're appealing I don't know, 35 points and a bit of Nigel's pocket money for three years of unfair competition is buttons.

voice of the crumbie
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by voice of the crumbie » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:42 pm

CitizenSmiff wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:54 pm
Sarries' defence according to the finding was ludicrous, essentially that they did break the salary cap but that the cap itself is unfair because it's a restraint on their trade. Why they're appealing I don't know, 35 points and a bit of Nigel's pocket money for three years of unfair competition is buttons.
I couldn't agree more. I believe they should forfeit the league titles for the years during which this scheme operated. Previously I considered them worthy champions. However now that it has been shown that they have unfairly manipulated the rules to be able to employ the raft of star players / internationals they have I no longer consider them as legitimate champions for those seasons.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:44 pm

make them nominate a squad that is under the cap, players not named can only play in Europe and ban them from signing new senior pros until they are below the cap again

strawclearer
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by strawclearer » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:54 pm

voice of the crumbie wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:42 pm
CitizenSmiff wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:54 pm
Sarries' defence according to the finding was ludicrous, essentially that they did break the salary cap but that the cap itself is unfair because it's a restraint on their trade. Why they're appealing I don't know, 35 points and a bit of Nigel's pocket money for three years of unfair competition is buttons.
I couldn't agree more. I believe they should forfeit the league titles for the years during which this scheme operated. Previously I considered them worthy champions. However now that it has been shown that they have unfairly manipulated the rules to be able to employ the raft of star players / internationals they have I no longer consider them as legitimate champions for those seasons.
:smt023 This is a very sad day for rugby and for our Premiership.
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
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nasher
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by nasher » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:08 pm

The whole situation is ludicrous ,presumably the players have lawyers vet their contracts before signing and the lawyer questions the situation of payments outside of salary. The tax implications themselves should lead any lawyer to question the situation. Rugby is going to the dogs, the conduct of Wray and the players is against the original spirit of the game but in the 21st century cash rules.

anz3001
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by anz3001 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:15 pm

nasher wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:08 pm
The whole situation is ludicrous ,presumably the players have lawyers vet their contracts before signing and the lawyer questions the situation of payments outside of salary. The tax implications themselves should lead any lawyer to question the situation. Rugby is going to the dogs, the conduct of Wray and the players is against the original spirit of the game but in the 21st century cash rules.
The players have lawyers to look after their own interests but how could the lawyers possibly know the financial details of all the other squad members both individually and as a collective.

BFG
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BFG » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:26 pm

I've always thought that clubs should be allowed more cap for providing England players.
I thought it after the World Cup in 03 when Leicester suffered and still think it.
I don't mind that Sarries support their players with investments.
I do mind that these things might be hidden to gain an advantage.
What I really dislike though above all else are male England players receiving £25k per match and sharing millions of pounds of a World Cup bonus.
In the meantime grassroots clubs such as a South Leics have their budgets decimated and lose all of their players.
The women also don't get the same even when they were World champions and arguably putting on a better brand of rugby.
It's all a very messy situation and enough to be put off.

ABClub
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by ABClub » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:12 am

BFG wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:26 pm
I've always thought that clubs should be allowed more cap for providing England players.
They do.

- £50k credits for homegrown players (up to max £600k per season)
- £40k credits per season for EPS players.
- £5k additional credit for each Prem or Euro game missed by EPS player due to international call-up.
- £10k credits for each Prem or Euro game missed by non EPS player due to international call-up.
- Maximum of £80k in credits per player per season across home grown player credits and international credits.

The cap is £7m if clubs access all £600k credits for home grown players, which almost all do. Add in 2 marquee players, £400k injury dispensation and international credits.

The max salary for an academy player is £30k, above this they are considered senior players under the cap. There is an academy ceiling of £100k for non home grown academy players.

CitizenSmiff
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by CitizenSmiff » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:51 am

I might file a small claim for the price of my tickets to the Sarries game just to make a nuisance of myself, they weren't cheap and we'd have won that if they were playing fair.

BFG
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BFG » Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:57 am

CitizenSmiff wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:51 am
I might file a small claim for the price of my tickets to the Sarries game just to make a nuisance of myself, they weren't cheap and we'd have won that if they were playing fair.
Imagine how Chiefs fans must feel!

BFG
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BFG » Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:00 am

ABClub wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:12 am
BFG wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:26 pm
I've always thought that clubs should be allowed more cap for providing England players.
They do.

- £50k credits for homegrown players (up to max £600k per season)
- £40k credits per season for EPS players.
- £5k additional credit for each Prem or Euro game missed by EPS player due to international call-up.
- £10k credits for each Prem or Euro game missed by non EPS player due to international call-up.
- Maximum of £80k in credits per player per season across home grown player credits and international credits.

The cap is £7m if clubs access all £600k credits for home grown players, which almost all do. Add in 2 marquee players, £400k injury dispensation and international credits.

The max salary for an academy player is £30k, above this they are considered senior players under the cap. There is an academy ceiling of £100k for non home grown academy players.
Blimey there is some money floating around the highest level.
I'm even more put off now.

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