Saracens are relegated!

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chewbacca
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by chewbacca » Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:52 pm

drc_007 wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:43 pm
chewbacca wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:45 pm
One has to question whether their European titles will be withdrawn and presumably that decision is one for that governing body. One could argue that without a squad assembled in breach of the premiership regulations their ability to qualify for and "win" European titles would not have been possible.
There are no salary caps in the European competitions, would be a bit rich if the clubs from other countries complained when they are not restricted by a salary cap.
Indeed there aren't but I would argue that as there are cap restrictions in the qualifying competition, Premiership Rugby, and as those regulations were breached then Saracens gained an unfair advantage in qualifying for the European cup and that there is at least the potential for awarding their title to the beaten finalists. That there are no caps for teams from other qualifying competitions is incidental.
Having said that however I do expect Saracens to appeal and use their superior financial resources to "out lawyer" premiership rugby thus making the application of the regulation only enforceable for those of limited finances. Pretty much the way the law goes every time.
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biffer
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by biffer » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:31 pm

loretta wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:42 pm
Will it be like rugby disciplinary hearings? Plead innocent and risk a greater punishment?

Here's hoping....
Or get it halved for turning up in a nice suit and not eating the pink wafers

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by RichieB » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:36 pm

Whilst I am pleased with the conclusion and outcome of the investigation, I am not inclined to feel any joy or satisfaction. As others have said, I hope to all that is holy that Tigers have not succumbed to any similar infraction, to any degree. Saracens have already lodged their appeal and no doubt will not think twice about pointing fingers at other clubs in mitigation of their own crime.

daktari
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by daktari » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:37 pm

Apparently they can’t appeal the decision, only ask for a review of the decision ( has to be good reason for this). What’s odd is Wray isn’t denying doing it and tried to defend it on competition rules.
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RichieB
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by RichieB » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:43 pm

daktari wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:37 pm
Apparently they can’t appeal the decision, only ask for a review of the decision ( has to be good reason for this). What’s odd is Wray isn’t denying doing it and tried to defend it on competition rules.
Maybe Wray has used incorrect terminology then. From BBC website: "This is absolutely devastating for everyone associated with this amazing group of players, staff, partners and fans."

"It's been acknowledged by the panel that we never deliberately sought to mislead anyone or breach the cap.

"That's why it feels like the rug is being completely pulled out from under our feet. We will appeal all the findings."

kend
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by kend » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:44 pm

Traveller wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:49 pm
Scuttle wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:27 pm
wellstiger wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:21 am
So in theory how does this work?
Is fine and points deduction the end of the matter?
Do they now field the same squads or do they have to let players go?
Do they "Keep Calm Carry On" and hope their isn't another review? :smt017 :smt017
The Premiership Rugby statement said the sanctions will be suspended if Saracens appeal. Saracens have said they will appeal all findings. So, if it has taken as long as it has for this first phase we can be sure the appeal will last to at least the end of the season. That gives Saracens time to win the Premiership and Champions Cup this seaon, shed some costs in a more measured way and rebuild/repurpose for the next season when sanctions may still be applied depending on the appeal outcome.
The appeal will be quicker and it can only be on 'an error in law, the decision being irrational of that there has been some procedural unfairness.' Unlikely given the make up of the Sports Resolution team involved.
I believe they can take it beyond the appeal to judicial review - ultra vires?

I think I would hold back on the the schadenfreude until the end of the process - Wray has very deep pockets.

What is for sure is this is a big moment for English rugby. If the appeal fails then PRL still have some semblance of control. Win and the cap is dead and we have a two speed premiership; those that have the reach and money to play the same game as Sarries and the rest. I imagine the fellow who owns Bristol (Lansdown?) is looking on with interest.....

Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:46 pm

Mr Wray is hardly likely to release a press statement along the lines of 'It's a fair cop. We know we been busting the league but really don't give a monkey. We will say what we say, and do what we do and try to get away with it.' Now is he?

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by JP14 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:47 pm

I’m sure the Shed will keep their mouths shut against Sarries this weekend.
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voice of the crumbie
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by voice of the crumbie » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:55 pm

Surely the most impact of this will be if the 35 point deduction was to cause them to be relegated? Given that their England players will miss games post world cup and during the 6 Nations they would only have to suffer a few unexpected defeats for this to be a possibility. I can't see all their big name stars wanting to play in the championship.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

nasher
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by nasher » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:05 pm

I am very amused by some of the comments in the press( origin unknown) that the the players involved were unaware and completely innocent, they received the money, either they have too much or are thick. Guessing the extent of the abuse I cannot see how any other premiership club can afford the players involved without a similar scheme. Wrays appeal will succeed.

jgriffin
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by jgriffin » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:34 pm

It is NOT an appeal, merely a review of the correct application of the law, which given the constituents on the panel, likely that Wray could find himself up against big guns if he goes nuclear on it.
I was told, as were others it seems, that most players were aware of Sarries misdemeanours from 2012-13. My informant in 2013 (a recently retired player connected to Bath and Tigers) also said Bath were trying it on.
I cannot see Tony Rowe - given the new money behind Chiefs - sitting on his hands on this one if they can get a purchase on reversing any results. If Wray succeeds in destroying the cap, Chiefs have a lot of unused ££££ firepower to create a super-club, as have Sale and Brizzle.
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teds
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by teds » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:39 pm

nasher wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:05 pm
I am very amused by some of the comments in the press( origin unknown) that the the players involved were unaware and completely innocent, they received the money, either they have too much or are thick. Guessing the extent of the abuse I cannot see how any other premiership club can afford the players involved without a similar scheme. Wrays appeal will succeed.
I’ve got sympathy with the players. If your employer offered you a coinvestment scheme and assured you he’d checked it out with his lawyers and tax accountants and also already declared it to the salary cap manager, are you sure you wouldn’t have taken him up on it?

That said, I never fully bought the idea that Sarries were only doing this to look after their players. The co-investments only seem to be offered to the star players, unless the scope of this actually extends much further than has so far been discovered.

Jacko27
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Jacko27 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:54 pm

Sarries 35 point deduction has been suspended pending the outcome of a review so unfortunately we're back to 11th in the table.

Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:57 pm

appeal should go as follows

Appeal Chair: "Mr Wray would you have invested in these companies had the players not been at Saracens?"

Wray: "well no but.."

Chair interrupts: "well why are you wasting our time you have clearly tried to find a work around on the salary cap get out of here before we expel you from the league"

Big Dai
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Big Dai » Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:12 pm

loretta wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:54 pm
Big Dai wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:48 pm
Just hope that we are squeaky clean. This sort of thing usually rakes all the muck up.
If we've been cheating to improve our situation, we must have been absolutely terrible at it!
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