New Saracens salary cap investigation

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fleabane
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New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by fleabane » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:05 am

The Times reporting today that Saracens have been asked to open their books for a spot check. Checks usually happen at the end of the season. This follows speculation and questions from other Premiership clubs.

A formal request in writing is to be made to Saracens.
Last edited by fleabane on Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RichieB
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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by RichieB » Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:46 am

A spot check usually implies that no notice is given. One typical reason no notice is given is to prevent any doctoring of evidence. Why has this been leaked in advance of the request being made to Saracens?

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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by Mark62 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:29 am

Did anyone else see the tweet saying that all the other premiership owners have advised Nigel Wray that he won’t be welcome at the other clubs

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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by Cagey Tiger » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:14 am

RichieB wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:46 am
A spot check usually implies that no notice is given. One typical reason no notice is given is to prevent any doctoring of evidence. Why has this been leaked in advance of the request being made to Saracens?
From the article, I think that the request has been made, but PRL aren't sure if they have the power to demand it. If Sarries agree, fine, if not, its over to the lawyers.

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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by ads » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:36 pm

Or PRL are giving them a chance to sort their :censored: out whilst looking like they are taking it seriously this season.....

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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by Smudge » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:00 am

Mark 62 wrote
Did anyone else see the tweet saying that all the other premiership owners have advised Nigel Wray that he won’t be welcome at the other clubs
I would normally think such action was petulant but not in this case. He robbed all the other clubs, players, supporters over three years and still won't admit they cheated. Much of the anger stems from the leniency of the punishment. That they cheated for at least three years ( I believe it was more), the fine is small change to Wray and the 35 points is no where near comparable to the fine and ban on Dean Richards for technically cheating in one game. I understand that the PRL rules don't allow for more but I have to ask why the clubs cannot have an extraordinary general meeting and change the rules. Sarries would argue that retrospective changes can not be made and enacted but frankly they can make and agree any rules they choose. The ban on Deano would be obvious supporting evidence.
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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by chewbacca » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:13 am

Yeah but Deano didn't have a whole sack full of cash to lawyer up.
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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by fleabane » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:19 am

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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by Cardiff Tig » Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:45 am

Smudge wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:00 am
Mark 62 wrote
Did anyone else see the tweet saying that all the other premiership owners have advised Nigel Wray that he won’t be welcome at the other clubs
I would normally think such action was petulant but not in this case. He robbed all the other clubs, players, supporters over three years and still won't admit they cheated. Much of the anger stems from the leniency of the punishment. That they cheated for at least three years ( I believe it was more), the fine is small change to Wray and the 35 points is no where near comparable to the fine and ban on Dean Richards for technically cheating in one game. I understand that the PRL rules don't allow for more but I have to ask why the clubs cannot have an extraordinary general meeting and change the rules. Sarries would argue that retrospective changes can not be made and enacted but frankly they can make and agree any rules they choose. The ban on Deano would be obvious supporting evidence.
IMO, Dean Richards' offence was worse. It was effectively match fixing. Sarries have been punished accordingly for cheating the cap.

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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by ads » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:10 am

[quote="

IMO, Dean Richards' offence was worse. It was effectively match fixing. Sarries have been punished accordingly for cheating the cap.
[/quote]

No, it's was breaking the rules to get a player on the field. Which is exactly what Sarries have done for for more than one player in more than one match.

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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by voice of the crumbie » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:22 am

Wray displays all the arrogance of certain elements of the monied classes. An attitude that is basically "I have money and I should be allowed to do what I want irrespective of the rules". As I said in an earlier post the same attitude was observable in Sir Phillip Green and we all know what happened to him. I've long suspected a similar attitude in Bruce Craig at Bath though on the evidence so far it hasn't been translated into salary cap infringements. There may be other owners of premiership clubs who feel the same way but have been sensible enough not to express it or translate it into salary cap breaches. The cynic in me says "they would if they thought they could get away with it" which, for me, justifies the "policing" of the cap.
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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by TTRITH » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:28 am

At this point Premiership Rugby should order an audit at ALL premiership clubs.
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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by Tiglon » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:00 am

I read a quote from Tony Rowe a few days ago which explains the "not welcome at other clubs" thing. I can't find it now, but it was saying that 4/5 years ago the other clubs agreed to effectively let Sarries get away with a lesser salary cap breach in exchange for Nigel Wray promising to play fairly from then on. Now it's been proved that he has broken that promise on a large scale, they are understandably furious.

It's not that the rules were broken, it's that, on a personal level, the other chairmen/owners etc feel betrayed and deceived by a man with zero integrity.

So that is the difference between Deano and Sarries. The Sarries breach is comparable to Deano being caught for bloodgate, being given no punishment because he apologised and promised not to do it again and then proceeding to spend the next 4 years doing exactly the same thing in every single match.

We all make mistakes. Deano made a big one (albeit one that is rumoured to have been done by a lot of clubs at that time), was punished for it and, as far as we know, hasn't done it since - that's forgivable. Wray got away without punishment, promised never to do it again, and continued to systematically do it for years afterwards until he was caught again - far less forgivable, particularly if you're the one who was lied to and the one who let him off the first time.

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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by Mark62 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:11 am

Tiglon wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:00 am
I read a quote from Tony Rowe a few days ago which explains the "not welcome at other clubs" thing. I can't find it now, but it was saying that 4/5 years ago the other clubs agreed to effectively let Sarries get away with a lesser salary cap breach in exchange for Nigel Wray promising to play fairly from then on. Now it's been proved that he has broken that promise on a large scale, they are understandably furious.

It's not that the rules were broken, it's that, on a personal level, the other chairmen/owners etc feel betrayed and deceived by a man with zero integrity.

So that is the difference between Deano and Sarries. The Sarries breach is comparable to Deano being caught for bloodgate, being given no punishment because he apologised and promised not to do it again and then proceeding to spend the next 4 years doing exactly the same thing in every single match.

We all make mistakes. Deano made a big one (albeit one that is rumoured to have been done by a lot of clubs at that time), was punished for it and, as far as we know, hasn't done it since - that's forgivable. Wray got away without punishment, promised never to do it again, and continued to systematically do it for years afterwards until he was caught again - far less forgivable, particularly if you're the one who was lied to and the one who let him off the first time.
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Re: New Saracens salary cap investigation

Post by jgriffin » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:31 pm

voice of the crumbie wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:22 am
Wray displays all the arrogance of certain elements of the monied classes. An attitude that is basically "I have money and I should be allowed to do what I want irrespective of the rules". As I said in an earlier post the same attitude was observable in Sir Phillip Green and we all know what happened to him. I've long suspected a similar attitude in Bruce Craig at Bath though on the evidence so far it hasn't been translated into salary cap infringements. There may be other owners of premiership clubs who feel the same way but have been sensible enough not to express it or translate it into salary cap breaches. The cynic in me says "they would if they thought they could get away with it" which, for me, justifies the "policing" of the cap.
Alas VOTC they are far more of one with the zeitgeist, wherein lying barefaced and screwing others over is now de rigeur for the very monied classes :smt005 :smt005 .
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