The World Cup Final

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voice of the crumbie
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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by voice of the crumbie » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:24 am

mol2 wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:13 pm
England picked a side and tactics to beat Australia and did the same against New Zealand.

Jones Lost the courage of his convictions and didn't make changes in players or personnel to reflect that South Africa were not going to be beaten in the same way.

New Zealand showed how to do that in the pool stages. Their scrum wasn't exposed because they didn't knock on with such regularity as England did.

Going for a mobile pack only works if you either don't concede scrums or the opponents can't scrum.
Jones got his starters and finishers the wrong way round in that game and the World Cup was gone.

Macko can't scrummage and England paid a heavy price. Compounded by starting with Lawes who doesn't have the scrummaging grunt in the engine room when it comes to that sort of game.
Shoehorning Daly into the full back slot was costly too.
Agree with all of this and would add Sinckler's no scrummager either.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by BFG » Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:44 am

Leicestertinytiger wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:52 am
Many pundits predicted before the World Cup it would be won by either South Africa or New Zealand. RFU’s target for Eddie was to get to the semi final. So even having lost the final England did better than expected so hats off to the squad.

England’s rugby team is on the rise. Many of those players will be around for the next tournament in France. Plus we have stacks of talent coming through from the U20s team. Many lessons to be learnt but no doubt the red rose will come back stronger.
England will always fall short, it's far too comfy in my opinion.
South Africa wanted it so much more.
For me hearing the South African skipper talk about his next meal being the priority as a youngster just highlighted the difference between the two sides.

fortysix
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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by fortysix » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:17 pm

The last England Prop that could scrummage the life out of any oppostion was Andrew Sheridan.
Since then its been more about park running and becoming lither--as we have seen with Cole..
And the papers said Jones was a strategist par excellance....................

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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:41 pm

fortysix wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:17 pm
The last England Prop that could scrummage the life out of any oppostion was Andrew Sheridan.
Since then its been more about park running and becoming lither--as we have seen with Cole..
And the papers said Jones was a strategist par excellance....................
Sheridan could out scrummage Australia. I seem to remember a selection of Tigers Props making him look very silly. That said Cole can now hopefully return to Boris & be back to eating up premiership scrums, I suggest Genge will be champing at the bit when he returns to us.
Half of the problem yesterday was the England Loose head being almost 100% ineffective in the scrum, hence Cole having two opponents to scrum against.
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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by BFG » Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:53 pm

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:41 pm
fortysix wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:17 pm
The last England Prop that could scrummage the life out of any oppostion was Andrew Sheridan.
Since then its been more about park running and becoming lither--as we have seen with Cole..
And the papers said Jones was a strategist par excellance....................
Sheridan could out scrummage Australia. I seem to remember a selection of Tigers Props making him look very silly. That said Cole can now hopefully return to Boris & be back to eating up premiership scrums, I suggest Genge will be champing at the bit when he returns to us.
Half of the problem yesterday was the England Loose head being almost 100% ineffective in the scrum, hence Cole having two opponents to scrum against.
I was thinking that taking not 100% match fit players (Mako) to a tournament might not be such a great idea.

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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by Tiglon » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:14 pm

BFG wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 11:44 am
Leicestertinytiger wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:52 am
Many pundits predicted before the World Cup it would be won by either South Africa or New Zealand. RFU’s target for Eddie was to get to the semi final. So even having lost the final England did better than expected so hats off to the squad.

England’s rugby team is on the rise. Many of those players will be around for the next tournament in France. Plus we have stacks of talent coming through from the U20s team. Many lessons to be learnt but no doubt the red rose will come back stronger.
England will always fall short, it's far too comfy in my opinion.
South Africa wanted it so much more.
For me hearing the South African skipper talk about his next meal being the priority as a youngster just highlighted the difference between the two sides.
I hardly think childhood poverty is a prerequisite for winning the World Cup...

And let's be honest, some of these stories are very much spun to sound a certain way. I once walked 7 miles to school, so you could truthfully write that I walked 7 miles to school when I was growing up, just as has been written about Mapimpi. Next meal being the priority as a youngster? Yep, same for me too, doesn't mean I was poor or experienced any hardship. Learn to take what you read in the media with a pinch of salt and a dash of common sense.

Let's not patronise the South African team with "they wanted it more", just give them the praise they deserve and admit they were better. They kicked better, they handled better and they made better decisions.

Final point: Lewis Moody went to prep school followed by Oakham School. Now have a think about whether there's a negative correlation between childhood privilege and commitment on the rugby pitch.

Tiger_in_Birmingham
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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by Tiger_in_Birmingham » Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:35 pm

fortysix wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:17 pm
The last England Prop that could scrummage the life out of any oppostion was Andrew Sheridan.
Since then its been more about park running and becoming lither--as we have seen with Cole..
And the papers said Jones was a strategist par excellance....................
Sheridan was nothing more than a flat track bully, he was the epitome of size over skill.

Alex Corbisiero on the other hand...

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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by mol2 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:25 pm

Cole is perfectly capable of scrummaging the life out of the opposition.

England have not given him a front row and second row to make use of his power.

As for Tigers we should not forget that when Ayerza was playing on the loose head things were different.

Over the past couple of seasons we have seen Tigers scrum become less potent. I would say this relates to Ayerza retiring (although the emergence of Genge is changing this) and the decline of Youngs as a scrummaging force. We saw examples of this yesterday against Gloucester when Pelotanau came on and we went from parity to dominance. He didn’t have a reputation as a big scrummager as an international.

Prior to this we have seen Tigers pack do exactly the same when Van Vuuren played. Although his opportunities were few under Cockers. He seemed to prefer small mobile hookers (rivalry with West perhaps)

After the World Cup we will hopefully have two powerful scrummagers starting and on the bench on both sides of the scrum. Hopefully we will not see Young’s stay on when he is exhausted and make sensible use of the bench.

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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by ay2oh » Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:31 pm

mol2 wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:25 pm
Cole is perfectly capable of scrummaging the life out of the opposition.

England have not given him a front row and second row to make use of his power.

As for Tigers we should not forget that when Ayerza was playing on the loose head things were different.

Over the past couple of seasons we have seen Tigers scrum become less potent. I would say this relates to Ayerza retiring (although the emergence of Genge is changing this) and the decline of Youngs as a scrummaging force. We saw examples of this yesterday against Gloucester when Pelotanau came on and we went from parity to dominance. He didn’t have a reputation as a big scrummager as an international.

Prior to this we have seen Tigers pack do exactly the same when Van Vuuren played. Although his opportunities were few under Cockers. He seemed to prefer small mobile hookers (rivalry with West perhaps)

After the World Cup we will hopefully have two powerful scrummagers starting and on the bench on both sides of the scrum. Hopefully we will not see Young’s stay on when he is exhausted and make sensible use of the bench.
I disagree that Tigers scrum has become less potent. In fact I believe that our scrum was no 1 in the league despite us finishing 11th. It was only our scrum + Fords brilliance that kept us up. :smt003
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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by Big Dai » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:52 pm

From my limited experience the scrum is an eight man thing. The props need good technique but without adequate support from the engine room and flank what they can do is limited.
Eddie picked the wrong pack, it's not just the front row's issue.
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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by Grimlish » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:50 pm

A shake up is afoot...

“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.“

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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by longlivethecrumbie » Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:08 am

Grimlish wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:50 pm
A shake up is afoot...

“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.“
Quite right too. Cole, Marler, Youngs, Wilson, Lawes are all unlikely to be around at the World Cup in four years time primarily due to age more than anything else. That said, I think it'll be more evolution rather than revolution with a gradual drip of replacements for the old guard.

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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by BFG » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:37 am

Grimlish wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:50 pm
A shake up is afoot...

“I tell you what happens to teams – they evolve,” Jones said. “Some guys will lose desire, some guys will lose fitness, some guys will get injuries and there’ll be young guys come through. So this team is finished now. There will be a new team made. We’ll make a new team for the Six Nations and that new team for the Six Nations will be the basis of going to the next World Cup.“
And in four years time England will likely have an outside centre at full back grasping at thin air and a smirking skipper who misses important kicks with 12 on his back being made to look like a lamppost by the opposition winger because Eddie has no back three players on his bench.
Not forgetting the prop who came to the World Cup not fully fit who got done over in the final whilst a young hungry prop was sat watching.
All because ultimately it'll be about face fitting and "he is a well liked member of the squad" will continue to be one of Eddie's favourite comments.

voice of the crumbie
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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by voice of the crumbie » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:03 am

Wayne Richardson Fan Club wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:41 pm
fortysix wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:17 pm

And the papers said Jones was a strategist par excellance....................
History said the same about Napoleon but he still lost key battles.

Half of the problem yesterday was the England Loose head being almost 100% ineffective in the scrum, hence Cole having two opponents to scrum against.
:smt023 Correct. This has been a consistent problem for England against teams who know how to scrummage.
ay2oh wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:31 pm
I disagree that Tigers scrum has become less potent.
:smt023

I would agree with your assertion when we have Cole at tighthead and a fit Bateman or Genge at loosehead (even though he still has to improve further at scrummaging to approach Ayerza or Rowntree levels.)
Of our other props Leatigaga looks useful and Heyes is continuing to develop as is Gigena. I'm not sure whether Cortes will make the grade. Hopefully Boris can work his magic with him also.

As far as our hookers or indeed any team's hookers are concerned the need to balance scrum power with mobility around the park, the ability to throw accurately at the lineout, to be an effective ball carrier in loose play and at the back of driving mauls is paramount. Very few hookers are equally adept at all these skills. The Thacker/Brits type of hooker, for example, requires excellent prop power and technique on both sides plus a pair of big powerful locks to compensate for their lack of scrum power.
Of our hookers TPN is good in the scrum and around the park but his throwing can be erratic. I would agree that TY has lost some of his scrummaging power but is a great carrier and tackler whose throwing has improved recently to where it used to be when he was vying with Hartley for the England hooker's jersey. Jake Kerr is still a work in progress and has done extremely well to achieve what he has internationally. I hope he stays at Tigers and continues to develop.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

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Re: The World Cup Final

Post by JP14 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:18 am

I did a video on the whole tournament:

https://youtu.be/2PcsC7Kib4M
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