Canada Embarrassing?

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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

expand the 6 nations to 10, have 2 5 team groups playing each other once top 2 teams play in a final, that will help the likes of Russia, Georgia etc.
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

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Jimmy Skitz wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:44 pm expand the 6 nations to 10, have 2 5 team groups playing each other once top 2 teams play in a final, that will help the likes of Russia, Georgia etc.
The occasional mismatch of England v Spain in a rare random draw is one thing but to promote it as a regular occurence would be dreadful. People complain about the lack of competition from Italy. I think Russia and Georgia have yet to beat an Emerging Italy, never mind Saxons or Wolfhounds, let alone get anywhere near a first XV. Two unstreamed pools would lead to a series of terrible mismatches, do more to drag tier one teams down than bring tier two up and probably destroy the 6 Nations/10 Nations competition.

We already have streamed competition with promotion and relegation except between 6 Nations and REIC Championship. Perhaps there should be the possibility of promotion here as well, either automatic or through a play off mechanism.
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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

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h's dad wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:17 am
Jimmy Skitz wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:44 pm expand the 6 nations to 10, have 2 5 team groups playing each other once top 2 teams play in a final, that will help the likes of Russia, Georgia etc.
The occasional mismatch of England v Spain in a rare random draw is one thing but to promote it as a regular occurence would be dreadful. People complain about the lack of competition from Italy. I think Russia and Georgia have yet to beat an Emerging Italy, never mind Saxons or Wolfhounds, let alone get anywhere near a first XV. Two unstreamed pools would lead to a series of terrible mismatches, do more to drag tier one teams down than bring tier two up and probably destroy the 6 Nations/10 Nations competition.

We already have streamed competition with promotion and relegation except between 6 Nations and REIC Championship. Perhaps there should be the possibility of promotion here as well, either automatic or through a play off mechanism.
These teams will never get better without the money being included in this will given them to invest in the game
h's dad
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by h's dad »

Jimmy Skitz wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:49 am
h's dad wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:17 am
Jimmy Skitz wrote: Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:44 pm expand the 6 nations to 10, have 2 5 team groups playing each other once top 2 teams play in a final, that will help the likes of Russia, Georgia etc.
The occasional mismatch of England v Spain in a rare random draw is one thing but to promote it as a regular occurence would be dreadful. People complain about the lack of competition from Italy. I think Russia and Georgia have yet to beat an Emerging Italy, never mind Saxons or Wolfhounds, let alone get anywhere near a first XV. Two unstreamed pools would lead to a series of terrible mismatches, do more to drag tier one teams down than bring tier two up and probably destroy the 6 Nations/10 Nations competition.

We already have streamed competition with promotion and relegation except between 6 Nations and REIC Championship. Perhaps there should be the possibility of promotion here as well, either automatic or through a play off mechanism.
These teams will never get better without the money being included in this will given them to invest in the game
If England and Ireland played Spain and Romania on a regular basis the tier one teams would insist on getting tier one money with crumbs left over for the opposition. There is more chance of 6 Nations countries paying NOT to have to play such matches as they would be financially much better off playing more competitive fixtures.

You are right that more financial support by tier one giving to tier two unions would bring them on but with the current playing field, fixtures would not and are not the way to do it.
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BFG
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by BFG »

h's dad wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:14 am
Jimmy Skitz wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:49 am
h's dad wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:17 am
The occasional mismatch of England v Spain in a rare random draw is one thing but to promote it as a regular occurence would be dreadful. People complain about the lack of competition from Italy. I think Russia and Georgia have yet to beat an Emerging Italy, never mind Saxons or Wolfhounds, let alone get anywhere near a first XV. Two unstreamed pools would lead to a series of terrible mismatches, do more to drag tier one teams down than bring tier two up and probably destroy the 6 Nations/10 Nations competition.

We already have streamed competition with promotion and relegation except between 6 Nations and REIC Championship. Perhaps there should be the possibility of promotion here as well, either automatic or through a play off mechanism.
These teams will never get better without the money being included in this will given them to invest in the game
If England and Ireland played Spain and Romania on a regular basis the tier one teams would insist on getting tier one money with crumbs left over for the opposition. There is more chance of 6 Nations countries paying NOT to have to play such matches as they would be financially much better off playing more competitive fixtures.

You are right that more financial support by tier one giving to tier two unions would bring them on but with the current playing field, fixtures would not and are not the way to do it.
This isn't really about Spain or Romania at the start.
It's more about Tonga, Samoa and Fiji who do possess the genuine potential to compete having their talent lured away by money by the more developed nations.
Then maybe England aren't so strong on the pitch and Spain and Romania can get closer.
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by Cardiff Tig »

But there isn't enough money in the game for this. There needs to be a fully professional domestic game that pays the going rate for current players. That won't happen in what are some of the poorest countries in the world. Rugby is way down the list when it comes to solving these problems.

Fiji are competitive because their players play abroad in the top leagues, with high standard training and medical facilities. This just doesn't exist in Fiji. And its not the job of tier 1 unions to prop up other countries' domestic leagues. They would go bust. Look how much trouble Wales are in just trying to keep 4 professional sides going.
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by h's dad »

BFG wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:39 am
h's dad wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:14 am
Jimmy Skitz wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:49 am
These teams will never get better without the money being included in this will given them to invest in the game
If England and Ireland played Spain and Romania on a regular basis the tier one teams would insist on getting tier one money with crumbs left over for the opposition. There is more chance of 6 Nations countries paying NOT to have to play such matches as they would be financially much better off playing more competitive fixtures.

You are right that more financial support by tier one giving to tier two unions would bring them on but with the current playing field, fixtures would not and are not the way to do it.
This isn't really about Spain or Romania at the start.
It's more about Tonga, Samoa and Fiji who do possess the genuine potential to compete having their talent lured away by money by the more developed nations.
Then maybe England aren't so strong on the pitch and Spain and Romania can get closer.
I was responding to Jimmy's suggestion of expanding the 6 Nations to ten teams including specifically Russia and Georgia plus two more. I was assuming Jimmy intended that the other two would also come from Europe. I may be wrong.

Perhaps you could let us know which players in the England squad have been 'lured away by money' from Tonga, Samoa or Fiji as adults or even youths, rather than as pre-teen children?.
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BFG
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by BFG »

h's dad wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:11 am
BFG wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:39 am
h's dad wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:14 am
If England and Ireland played Spain and Romania on a regular basis the tier one teams would insist on getting tier one money with crumbs left over for the opposition. There is more chance of 6 Nations countries paying NOT to have to play such matches as they would be financially much better off playing more competitive fixtures.

You are right that more financial support by tier one giving to tier two unions would bring them on but with the current playing field, fixtures would not and are not the way to do it.
This isn't really about Spain or Romania at the start.
It's more about Tonga, Samoa and Fiji who do possess the genuine potential to compete having their talent lured away by money by the more developed nations.
Then maybe England aren't so strong on the pitch and Spain and Romania can get closer.
I was responding to Jimmy's suggestion of expanding the 6 Nations to ten teams including specifically Russia and Georgia plus two more. I was assuming Jimmy intended that the other two would also come from Europe. I may be wrong.

Perhaps you could let us know which players in the England squad have been 'lured away by money' from Tonga, Samoa or Fiji as adults or even youths, rather than as pre-teen children?.
:smt005
You don't need me to answer that!
That it might happen as pre-teen children could be considered obscene, rugby shouldn't be singled out as we know it happens in all sports but it still doesn't make it right.
Everyone knows that if Fiji or Tonga ever start making the semi-finals of world cups then it leaves two less places at the top table.
The nations poaching are basically chickens that hold back the development of the sport on the whole to try to preserve their current status.
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by h's dad »

BFG wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:28 am
h's dad wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:11 am
BFG wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:39 am

This isn't really about Spain or Romania at the start.
It's more about Tonga, Samoa and Fiji who do possess the genuine potential to compete having their talent lured away by money by the more developed nations.
Then maybe England aren't so strong on the pitch and Spain and Romania can get closer.
I was responding to Jimmy's suggestion of expanding the 6 Nations to ten teams including specifically Russia and Georgia plus two more. I was assuming Jimmy intended that the other two would also come from Europe. I may be wrong.

Perhaps you could let us know which players in the England squad have been 'lured away by money' from Tonga, Samoa or Fiji as adults or even youths, rather than as pre-teen children?.
:smt005
You don't need me to answer that!
That it might happen as pre-teen children could be considered obscene, rugby shouldn't be singled out as we know it happens in all sports but it still doesn't make it right.
Everyone knows that if Fiji or Tonga ever start making the semi-finals of world cups then it leaves two less places at the top table.
The nations poaching are basically chickens that hold back the development of the sport on the whole to try to preserve their current status.
"You don't need me to answer that!"

For your point to have any validity, yes I do.

"pre-teen children could be considered obscene"

You need help. You really do.

"Everyone knows that if Fiji or Tonga ever start making the semi-finals of world cups then it leaves two less places at the top table."

'or' would leave one less place. Although your logicial incompetence is much less of a concern than your other issues.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game
Mark62
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by Mark62 »

Just thought I’d look at the England squad and those that looking at their surnames could possibly have been poached from other smaller nations.

Billy V born in Australia, moved to UK as a small child.
Mako V born in New Zealand moved to UK as a small child
Maro Itoje born in London
Joe Cokanasiga born in Fiji moved to the uk before his first birthday.
Manu Tuilagi moved to live with brothers in 2004, from Samoa, and first played rugby for Rumney rfc as Freddie was playing for Cardiff, must admit I didn’t know that, but his rugby education came in the UK and through England age groups

No poaching of South sea island talent there. France however is a different matter
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by Tiglon »

Is the ability of those players down to their rugby education in Britain or their physique from their Pacific Island families? Would Manu be an international player if he had the physique of George Ford? No way to answer that so it's all a bit hypothetical. Agree that these players have not been poached, but might some of them have chosen to represent Tonga, Samoa or Fiji if those countries could offer the same opportunity to play regularly against top nations and the same international wage packet?

There are a lot of rugby agents out there who persuade promising Pacific Island teenagers to move to NZ, Aus and Europe with the promise of money and success - most of them end up stuck in poverty in a foreign land. It's a huge scandal that is sadly under-reported. Slightly off topic though.

How to help Pacific Island nations on the rugby field? Similar to Rugby League rules, allow players to represent a second nation after already being capped to another. To restrict it to helping the smaller nations rather than the super powers, only allow players to represent a second nation with a lower ranking of X places below their first nation. Definitely some flaws there (e.g. ex All Blacks turning out for Scotland etc) but the new five year residency qualification rule would limit abuses. I for one would have been delighted to see Polota Nau running out for Tonga at the World Cup instead of an amateur they found on facebook. If the World Cup is to have more meaning, it needs more competitive nations.

There's no easy solution, but it's upsetting to see a sport that benefits so greatly from Pacific Island players seemingly unwilling or unable to support Pacific Island nations.
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by JP14 »

Or what could be done is for Pacific Islanders such as Piutau, Clermont’s Isaia Toeava to use the Olympic 7s loophole to play for Tonga and Samoa respectively that Cooper Vuna used.
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Mark62
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by Mark62 »

Tiglon wrote: Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:05 pm Is the ability of those players down to their rugby education in Britain or their physique from their Pacific Island families? Would Manu be an international player if he had the physique of George Ford? No way to answer that so it's all a bit hypothetical. Agree that these players have not been poached, but might some of them have chosen to represent Tonga, Samoa or Fiji if those countries could offer the same opportunity to play regularly against top nations and the same international wage packet?

There are a lot of rugby agents out there who persuade promising Pacific Island teenagers to move to NZ, Aus and Europe with the promise of money and success - most of them end up stuck in poverty in a foreign land. It's a huge scandal that is sadly under-reported. Slightly off topic though.

How to help Pacific Island nations on the rugby field? Similar to Rugby League rules, allow players to represent a second nation after already being capped to another. To restrict it to helping the smaller nations rather than the super powers, only allow players to represent a second nation with a lower ranking of X places below their first nation. Definitely some flaws there (e.g. ex All Blacks turning out for Scotland etc) but the new five year residency qualification rule would limit abuses. I for one would have been delighted to see Polota Nau running out for Tonga at the World Cup instead of an amateur they found on facebook. If the World Cup is to have more meaning, it needs more competitive nations.

There's no easy solution, but it's upsetting to see a sport that benefits so greatly from Pacific Island players seemingly unwilling or unable to support Pacific Island nations.
You’re quite right there is no answer, but the genetics certainly help but not all south sea islanders are test class rugby players, so one assumes that in the case of all, of these players their physical prowess was first identified then developed through the age group system.
Other than Itoje I don’t think any of them went to public school
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by Tiglon »

Pretty sure Itoje was born in london to African parents, so not the best example of a Pacific Islander...
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Re: Canada Embarrassing?

Post by sam16111986 »

Mark62 wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:37 pm Just thought I’d look at the England squad and those that looking at their surnames could possibly have been poached from other smaller nations.

Billy V born in Australia, moved to UK as a small child.
Mako V born in New Zealand moved to UK as a small child
Maro Itoje born in London
Joe Cokanasiga born in Fiji moved to the uk before his first birthday.
Manu Tuilagi moved to live with brothers in 2004, from Samoa, and first played rugby for Rumney rfc as Freddie was playing for Cardiff, must admit I didn’t know that, but his rugby education came in the UK and through England age groups

No poaching of South sea island talent there. France however is a different matter
Cockanasiga's dad served in the British army. Manu played for Hinckley school didn't know about the Rumney RFC.

The Vunipola's are the best ones. Playing for England because Pontpool tempted their dad across to play. Billy also attended Harrow School.
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