Borthwick

[RagingBull]

I don't understand why people think it wasn't announced till now because it's a Leicester thing rather than a RFU thing TBH.

[ABClub]

Does Ackerman pick the team at Glouc, or Humphries?

Humphries is effectively in Jan McGinity's role sorting contracts, whilst looking after player welfare and man management (which Smurf will be doing more of with Borthwick coming in it seems).

From my understanding it's been a while since Humphries had much, if any, role as on-field coach.

By sounds of things Geordie will still be involved with the backs and helping build the development pathway from academy through to senior squad. As such I think Geordie will still do a lot of onfield coaching through all the levels. Which Humphries no longer does. Same job title but completely different roles in practice.

[TigerBoy1880]

The idea of a HC in charge of training and style of play, with a DoR in charge of selection sounds very strange...

DOR's having less on the training ground influence is a common thing now with how much behind the scenes work there is in player management and bureaucracy.

McCall at Sarries is a case in point there. McCall is the man in charge but evolution of onfield play in terms of game plan and tactics have come about largely due to changes in assistant coaching changes. Farrell snr, to Gustard, to Sanderson for instance. With Farrell there he took on a lot of defensive and set-piece attack duties. When he left Gustard did less with attack but more with forwards. This allowed Kevin Sorrell to put his stamp on the backs and in my opinion they improved under Sorrell when Farrell moved on to England.

Murphy and Borthwick will work together on playing style and selection no doubt. Both will then work with McGinity on recruitment.

It's not the idea that the DoR wont be involved in training that I see as a potential problem, it's the idea that the Head Coach won't be selecting the team.

Not saying I'm right, but it reminds me of the muddled Cockers/Mauger situation.

Put one person in charge and let him or her get on with it.

The problem with Cockerill and Mauger was solely on Mauger in my opinion. He was brought in to get the backs firing but I think he believed he should be in charge of team selection etc but this was Cockerill’s job.

[ABClub]

I don't understand why people think it wasn't announced till now because it's a Leicester thing rather than a RFU thing TBH.

This confuses me also. Borthwick had a contract. The three parties (Tigers, RFU and Borthwick) were negotiating him leaving that contract. Once the agreement on when he could be released was finalised it has been announced.

I've been frequently and vocally critical of Tigers management of coaches coming and going but this isn't one of them. They chose a primary target for the head coach role and successfully hired him as soon as his previous commitments would allow. Good recruitment and hopefully Borthwick makes the impact we hope he does.

[Tiglon]

Firstly the constant negativity on here is pathetic.

Secondly if you are struggling to understand how the arrangement could work then listen to the bbc sport interview with Lancaster from last week. He explains how the roles work between him and Cullen at Leinster. It sounds like a similar setup

Firstly, good argument. You win.

Secondly, I'm not struggling to understand how it will work, I'm struggling to convince myself that it will work. If you're struggling to understand the difference... I can't help you.

It's a shame to see the forum to return to people seeing it as happy clappers vs doom mongers. Not everyone or every post has to fall into one of those stereotypes. Grow up. It's not about picking sides in some imaginary battle.

If you read my other posts, you'll see that I've expressed a lot of enthusiasm for Borthwick's appointment, but I do have some concerns over what appears to be the allocation of duties between him and Murphy. That doesn't mean I think we are all doomed, it just means I have a slightly different opinion to you.

[sapajo]

Firstly the constant negativity on here is pathetic.

Secondly if you are struggling to understand how the arrangement could work then listen to the bbc sport interview with Lancaster from last week. He explains how the roles work between him and Cullen at Leinster. It sounds like a similar setup

Firstly, good argument. You win.

Secondly, I'm not struggling to understand how it will work, I'm struggling to convince myself that it will work. If you're struggling to understand the difference... I can't help you.

It's a shame to see the forum to return to people seeing it as happy clappers vs doom mongers. Not everyone or every post has to fall into one of those stereotypes. Grow up. It's not about picking sides in some imaginary battle.

If you read my other posts, you'll see that I've expressed a lot of enthusiasm for Borthwick's appointment, but I do have some concerns over what appears to be the allocation of duties between him and Murphy. That doesn't mean I think we are all doomed, it just means I have a slightly different opinion to you.

Well reasoned and fair post

[anz3001]

Firstly the constant negativity on here is pathetic.

Secondly if you are struggling to understand how the arrangement could work then listen to the bbc sport interview with Lancaster from last week. He explains how the roles work between him and Cullen at Leinster. It sounds like a similar setup

Firstly, good argument. You win.

Secondly, I'm not struggling to understand how it will work, I'm struggling to convince myself that it will work. If you're struggling to understand the difference... I can't help you.

It's a shame to see the forum to return to people seeing it as happy clappers vs doom mongers. Not everyone or every post has to fall into one of those stereotypes. Grow up. It's not about picking sides in some imaginary battle.

If you read my other posts, you'll see that I've expressed a lot of enthusiasm for Borthwick's appointment, but I do have some concerns over what appears to be the allocation of duties between him and Murphy. That doesn't mean I think we are all doomed, it just means I have a slightly different opinion to you.

The ‘apparent allocation of duties’ is nothing but talk at this point though. Nothing to get hung up on.

[BFG]

I haven't agreed with Tiglon much on another topic but I get where he is coming from on this topic.
If a coach is going to select the style of play and coach the team then he needs to be able to select the team, otherwise wires are going to be crossed, again!

[Mark62]

Does anyone actually know what the division of labour is going to be yet. I’m going to go out on a limb and say No, yet there are all these people who say they don’t understand this and why is that happening and who does what in other clubs.

Borthwick is coming, he is rated as a high quality coach, even Dylan Hartley has tweeted what a good appointment it is, any chance that we can leave all the ill informed gossip until he actually gets here, then you all moan/praise as much as you want.

I know it isn’t going to happen but it doesn’t hurt to ask

[Traveller]

I've steered clear of commenting on the Borthwick appointment until it happened. Now it's been confirmed my thoughts are as follows:

You don't last seven years with fast Eddie unless you have talent and know what hard work looks like.

Borthwick had a long time to pull out of this deal. It's been muted in the press for months yet he's said nothing. He knows if he makes a success of things the England job could well be his in 2024. If he doesn't it won't.

On that basis he would have to be absolutely settled in his own mind over the division of labour, reporting / accountability issues, and the people he was going to be working with before he accepted the role. It doesn't matter to me whether he's called the 'Grand Visor of Bugtawan' or 'The Prince of Purple Cloaks". He's just what we need, and if he thinks the coaching structure is clear and can be successful. That's what matters.

[Tiglon]

Firstly the constant negativity on here is pathetic.

Secondly if you are struggling to understand how the arrangement could work then listen to the bbc sport interview with Lancaster from last week. He explains how the roles work between him and Cullen at Leinster. It sounds like a similar setup

Firstly, good argument. You win.

Secondly, I'm not struggling to understand how it will work, I'm struggling to convince myself that it will work. If you're struggling to understand the difference... I can't help you.

It's a shame to see the forum to return to people seeing it as happy clappers vs doom mongers. Not everyone or every post has to fall into one of those stereotypes. Grow up. It's not about picking sides in some imaginary battle.

If you read my other posts, you'll see that I've expressed a lot of enthusiasm for Borthwick's appointment, but I do have some concerns over what appears to be the allocation of duties between him and Murphy. That doesn't mean I think we are all doomed, it just means I have a slightly different opinion to you.

The ‘apparent allocation of duties’ is nothing but talk at this point though. Nothing to get hung up on.

Not getting hung up, just trying to instigate discussion.

I'm obviously unlikely to succeed with that, so I'll leave it there - other than to reiterate that I'm excited about Borthwick's arrival and I hope we give him the tools he needs to be the success he's clearly capable of being.

[strawclearer]

From what I've gleaned, we'll soon have a very strong triumvirate of Geordie, Jan McGinity and Steve Borthwick (for which, I repeat, well done Simon Cohen) and the demarcation of roles seems to have been discussed and agreed. Supporting these guys will be the other coaches and a scouting network and, of course, there'll be changes there as appropriate. It seems to me that, for the first time in a long time, we have people doing the job they want and that they're good at - which is more than half the battle.

Onward and upwards!

[Coleshillad]

I've steered clear of commenting on the Borthwick appointment until it happened. Now it's been confirmed my thoughts are as follows:

You don't last seven years with fast Eddie unless you have talent and know what hard work looks like.

Borthwick had a long time to pull out of this deal. It's been muted in the press for months yet he's said nothing. He knows if he makes a success of things the England job could well be his in 2024. If he doesn't it won't.

On that basis he would have to be absolutely settled in his own mind over the division of labour, reporting / accountability issues, and the people he was going to be working with before he accepted the role. It doesn't matter to me whether he's called the 'Grand Visor of Bugtawan' or 'The Prince of Purple Cloaks". He's just what we need, and if he thinks the coaching structure is clear and can be successful. That's what matters.

Totally agree. The previous 37 pages have been interesting, but this sums it all up.

[Wayne Richardson Fan Club]

Glad its finally confirmed, wait to be convinced he is the right man, I would hazard a guess that day to day coaching is different to international coaching.
If Borthwick wants to be England Head Coach we have to be a success so that's a plus.
Providing it doesn't mean Boris or Brett leaving again a plus.
I just have a feeling GM might be perfect for the DOR role, he obviously impresses the players & if you are a back 3 player I would think getting tips/coaching from him is invaluable.
And congratulations to the BOD who finally seem to be getting their act together, some better recruitment for this season (plus some still to answered), they have got a strong looking coaching team, a well respected recruitment guy & appear to not going to overpay to retain Lenny & May. The board still have a lot to do to repair all of the damage of recent years but we are seeing some positive signs. It appears coaching wise they have listened to Pat Howard.

On the Mauger/Cockerill partnership, they were given the wrong job titles, with an experienced head above them it would of worked.

[BFG]

The partnership will work just as long as they are all in agreement with player recruitment and selection.
There's no point in recruiting/selecting a player that won't/can't play the way that the style is required in his position.