Tiglon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:52 pm
The idea of a HC in charge of training and style of play, with a DoR in charge of selection sounds very strange...
I’d imagine it looks like this.
Murphy sets his vision of how he wants Tigers to play. Borthwick then coaches the players and sets training to match that vision. Murphy will be present at training sessions so he can then pick the team for the weekend.
But Murphy said Borthwick will decide the style of play.
Just worries me that Borthwick might not get the freedom to do things his way.
Tiglon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:52 pm
The idea of a HC in charge of training and style of play, with a DoR in charge of selection sounds very strange...
DOR's having less on the training ground influence is a common thing now with how much behind the scenes work there is in player management and bureaucracy.
McCall at Sarries is a case in point there. McCall is the man in charge but evolution of onfield play in terms of game plan and tactics have come about largely due to changes in assistant coaching changes. Farrell snr, to Gustard, to Sanderson for instance. With Farrell there he took on a lot of defensive and set-piece attack duties. When he left Gustard did less with attack but more with forwards. This allowed Kevin Sorrell to put his stamp on the backs and in my opinion they improved under Sorrell when Farrell moved on to England.
Murphy and Borthwick will work together on playing style and selection no doubt. Both will then work with McGinity on recruitment.
Tiglon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:52 pm
The idea of a HC in charge of training and style of play, with a DoR in charge of selection sounds very strange...
I’d imagine it looks like this.
Murphy sets his vision of how he wants Tigers to play. Borthwick then coaches the players and sets training to match that vision. Murphy will be present at training sessions so he can then pick the team for the weekend.
But Murphy said Borthwick will decide the style of play.
Just worries me that Borthwick might not get the freedom to do things his way.
Yes, once comfortable in doing so. Once this happens, Murphy will then watch the training and pick the team from what he has witnessed in training.
I’m sure that both Murphy and Borthwick will discuss things and share ideas on style of play, training and team selection anyway.
Tiglon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:52 pm
The idea of a HC in charge of training and style of play, with a DoR in charge of selection sounds very strange...
DOR's having less on the training ground influence is a common thing now with how much behind the scenes work there is in player management and bureaucracy.
McCall at Sarries is a case in point there. McCall is the man in charge but evolution of onfield play in terms of game plan and tactics have come about largely due to changes in assistant coaching changes. Farrell snr, to Gustard, to Sanderson for instance. With Farrell there he took on a lot of defensive and set-piece attack duties. When he left Gustard did less with attack but more with forwards. This allowed Kevin Sorrell to put his stamp on the backs and in my opinion they improved under Sorrell when Farrell moved on to England.
Murphy and Borthwick will work together on playing style and selection no doubt. Both will then work with McGinity on recruitment we can only presume.
Tiglon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:52 pm
The idea of a HC in charge of training and style of play, with a DoR in charge of selection sounds very strange...
DOR's having less on the training ground influence is a common thing now with how much behind the scenes work there is in player management and bureaucracy.
McCall at Sarries is a case in point there. McCall is the man in charge but evolution of onfield play in terms of game plan and tactics have come about largely due to changes in assistant coaching changes. Farrell snr, to Gustard, to Sanderson for instance. With Farrell there he took on a lot of defensive and set-piece attack duties. When he left Gustard did less with attack but more with forwards. This allowed Kevin Sorrell to put his stamp on the backs and in my opinion they improved under Sorrell when Farrell moved on to England.
Murphy and Borthwick will work together on playing style and selection no doubt. Both will then work with McGinity on recruitment.
It's not the idea that the DoR wont be involved in training that I see as a potential problem, it's the idea that the Head Coach won't be selecting the team.
Not saying I'm right, but it reminds me of the muddled Cockers/Mauger situation.
Put one person in charge and let him or her get on with it.
Firstly the constant negativity on here is pathetic.
Secondly if you are struggling to understand how the arrangement could work then listen to the bbc sport interview with Lancaster from last week. He explains how the roles work between him and Cullen at Leinster. It sounds like a similar setup
dunc wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:19 pm
Firstly the constant negativity on here is pathetic.
Secondly if you are struggling to understand how the arrangement could work then listen to the bbc sport interview with Lancaster from last week. He explains how the roles work between him and Cullen at Leinster. It sounds like a similar setup
And as has been mentioned, Ackerman and Humphreys at Glaws.
Murphy answer says he will continue to pick the side at the moment, but they will look at it again when Borthwick arrives.
Surely selection for any premiership side is done by the coaching group, with input from medics and s&c
Tiglon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:52 pm
The idea of a HC in charge of training and style of play, with a DoR in charge of selection sounds very strange...
DOR's having less on the training ground influence is a common thing now with how much behind the scenes work there is in player management and bureaucracy.
McCall at Sarries is a case in point there. McCall is the man in charge but evolution of onfield play in terms of game plan and tactics have come about largely due to changes in assistant coaching changes. Farrell snr, to Gustard, to Sanderson for instance. With Farrell there he took on a lot of defensive and set-piece attack duties. When he left Gustard did less with attack but more with forwards. This allowed Kevin Sorrell to put his stamp on the backs and in my opinion they improved under Sorrell when Farrell moved on to England.
Murphy and Borthwick will work together on playing style and selection no doubt. Both will then work with McGinity on recruitment.
Ask anyone who has ever worked for Dean Richards, he is never seen on the training paddock
Cardiff Tig wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 7:35 pm
Every DoR is responsible for team selection, ultimately its their job on the line. But Borthwick will be involved in all the decisions.
There is a bit of a gulf in terms of experience between Murphy and McCall so there is likely to be a different dynamic between Murphy and Borthwick than McCall and his he’s coach.
Murphy may well work well as a DOR. All we know is that he was appointed head coach before he was ready and the past year and a bit at the foot of the table may well be related to this. Without doubt our squad has been improved but we are not yet a team.
I hope that Borthwick is the coach to make the difference and being an outsider may be sufficiently distanced from the senior players to make the tough calls.
Tiglon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 6:52 pm
The idea of a HC in charge of training and style of play, with a DoR in charge of selection sounds very strange...
DOR's having less on the training ground influence is a common thing now with how much behind the scenes work there is in player management and bureaucracy.
McCall at Sarries is a case in point there. McCall is the man in charge but evolution of onfield play in terms of game plan and tactics have come about largely due to changes in assistant coaching changes. Farrell snr, to Gustard, to Sanderson for instance. With Farrell there he took on a lot of defensive and set-piece attack duties. When he left Gustard did less with attack but more with forwards. This allowed Kevin Sorrell to put his stamp on the backs and in my opinion they improved under Sorrell when Farrell moved on to England.
Murphy and Borthwick will work together on playing style and selection no doubt. Both will then work with McGinity on recruitment.
It's not the idea that the DoR wont be involved in training that I see as a potential problem, it's the idea that the Head Coach won't be selecting the team.
Not saying I'm right, but it reminds me of the muddled Cockers/Mauger situation.
Put one person in charge and let him or her get on with it.
I get what you're saying but it's always a case of multiple inputs coming to the decision with team selection.
Gatland with the Lions is an interesting example there. Gats was no doubt in charge but several big calls (Rory Best not making the initial '13 squad, Corbisiero called up as first back-up ahead of Ryan Grant after Corbs was out injured all season, Kruis starting ahead of Itoje and calling the line-out ahead of AWJ in the first test in '17) were apparently Wigs or Borthwicks calls to start with.
There needs to be multiple voices. We can only guess that Borthwick is happy with the set-up he's agreed to leave England to join.
A final, potentially divisive point is that Borthwick might not want his head to be first on the block given how the Tigers board have dealt with coaching appointments in recent years. Trust in the Tigers board can't be at an all time high just now.
Got to say thanks to the Tigers senior management for getting this over the line, much hard work done behind the scenes and I think we’ve got one of the most promising coaches around.
Also thanks to Murphy for taking the helm to give the club the time to get things sorted. The coaching gig came too early for Murphy really yet he took it on anyway. We know maybe things haven’t panned out but he never really had the experience. Takes a top bloke to deal with all the criticism and still work away. Him moving to DOR makes perfect sense, his strengths have always been at the strategic level and we can see that with the young players coming into the senior playing squad. He definitely has a vision for the club and I feel that will reap rewards in the long term.
Borthwick will now obviously bring the much needed technical ability in the coaching group. Plus McGinty who did a great job with Worcester’s recruitment and things are looking good for the club. On paper we have a great squad. Hopefully this set up will give the group of players the ability to play to their potential.
