Borthwick

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Traveller
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Traveller » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:12 pm

POSTIGER wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:02 pm
Bunchy wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:57 am
Still ironing out details, but borthwick will be head coach under GM as DoR in the very near future - just finalising details of his release from RFU........
Good news and bad news then.

Good news that Borthwick is coming in. Not such good news that GM remains as DOR, I really can't see what he has done to deserve that position. Apologies if that is unpopular.
I suppose the answer is that GM took on a role for which he was clearly ill prepared, because the Board in their :censored: had placed the club in a position where no serious coach would dream of joining us. In so doing, GM bought us time and was able to do the dirty work and offload some players, and recruit one or two high profile replacements. Time to convince a suitably qualified coach (Borthwick) to join.

In so doing GM as a great servant to the club, should be treated respectfully. It's not a perfect situation, but it is more perfect than where we were the day after the Exeter match at the start of last season.

Robespierre
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Robespierre » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:37 pm

Ok, Murphy has been a good servant to the club but does he merit being appointed Director of Rugby?
The answer is clearly no!
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fleabane
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Re: Borthwick

Post by fleabane » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:42 pm

drc_007 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:38 pm
The Tigers wikipedia page here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leicester_Tigers

At the bottom of the page the relative performances of all the Tigers coaches are compared. No guesses to who is by far the worst performing.
Always thought that Loffreda got a bad deal, got to 2 finals in his only year. Made the great error of not bringing in any of his own people, so that when he was undermined, he was on his own. Shame.
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Cagey Tiger
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Cagey Tiger » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:55 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:04 pm
JP14 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:12 pm
Redstripeman wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:20 pm


.. Still extolling the virtues of Cockers then!!
Obviously your not convinced this debacle started under him!!!
I wasn’t suggesting bringing him back, my point was merely a hypothetical opinion, exemplifying how under resourced Cockers was.
Stunning to see the win ratios of Cockers and Deano on a huge number of games. 60+% over an extended period, both sacked. Says a lot for the Board :smt035
Nothing to do with the win ratio. As with most "managers" in sport (professional and amateur) all to do with the loss ratio at the end of their tenure.

Traveller
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Traveller » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:18 pm

Robespierre wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:37 pm
Ok, Murphy has been a good servant to the club but does he merit being appointed Director of Rugby?
The answer is clearly no!
Agreed under normal circumstances!

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Re: Borthwick

Post by jgriffin » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:23 pm

Cagey Tiger wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:55 pm
jgriffin wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:04 pm
JP14 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:12 pm

I wasn’t suggesting bringing him back, my point was merely a hypothetical opinion, exemplifying how under resourced Cockers was.
Stunning to see the win ratios of Cockers and Deano on a huge number of games. 60+% over an extended period, both sacked. Says a lot for the Board :smt035
Nothing to do with the win ratio. As with most "managers" in sport (professional and amateur) all to do with the loss ratio at the end of their tenure.
No and yes.
Neglecting the impact those two characters had is criminal; equally to acknowledge they began to fail. You have to consider the reasons why, and in both cases, different thought they were, the Board had a part to play - in Cockers case failing to provide the £££ and allowing the coaching team to drop in standard precipitately.
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Re: Borthwick

Post by sapajo » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:54 pm

Robespierre wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:37 pm
Ok, Murphy has been a good servant to the club but does he merit being appointed Director of Rugby?
The answer is clearly no!
Well the board incompetently decided that he meritted appointment to Head Coach after his spectacular success as skills coach. It therefore comes as no surprise that as he has achieved spectacular success as head coach our insane board believe that he should now be promoted to Director of Rugby on merit.

Just goes to show you that merit has didly squat to do with any appointment. Tigers is an old boys club, where the greater your old boy cache the higher you shall rise.
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity

Tiglon
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Tiglon » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:13 pm

sapajo wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:54 pm
Robespierre wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:37 pm
Ok, Murphy has been a good servant to the club but does he merit being appointed Director of Rugby?
The answer is clearly no!
Well the board incompetently decided that he meritted appointment to Head Coach after his spectacular success as skills coach. It therefore comes as no surprise that as he has achieved spectacular success as head coach our insane board believe that he should now be promoted to Director of Rugby on merit.

Just goes to show you that merit has didly squat to do with any appointment. Tigers is an old boys club, where the greater your old boy cache the higher you shall rise.
Completely agree, certainly no meritocracy.

However, probably not surprising in what is really just an old fashioned members club masquerading as a modern professional entity.

Old boys feeding their egos instead of doing what's best for the club.

ads
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Re: Borthwick

Post by ads » Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:16 pm

Head coach and DOR are totally different roles though.
Maybe the board see good management from GM even if he isn't the best coach! Maybe behind the scenes he's done great work stabilising after the MOC clock up...

kk20gb30
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Re: Borthwick

Post by kk20gb30 » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:13 pm

ads wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:16 pm
Head coach and DOR are totally different roles though.
Maybe the board see good management from GM even if he isn't the best coach! Maybe behind the scenes he's done great work stabilising after the MOC clock up...
[/equote]

Maybe....
I'm yet to be convinced.

FrontRowUnionMember
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Re: Borthwick

Post by FrontRowUnionMember » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:32 pm

A number of the new signings spoke highly of GM and during talks about joining, his vision for the club going forward was something to buy into.
Seems he has the vision, but lacks the coaching ability to execute it.
Borthwick has a reputation for attention to game detail and technical skills.
Seems like they could be a good fit to me.

Is Humphrey's the best of hands on coaches, or does he take a more broad view and allow Ackerman to shape the playing side. Likewise, McCall generally seems to sit in the background looking at the bigger picture, and allows Sanderson to be the hands on influence.
Could Murphy and Borthwick strike the same balance? My one concern would be, should Borthwick as head coach have had scope to bring in his own team around him to manage the attack, defence, breakdown etc, rather than inherit a setup.

RichieB
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Re: Borthwick

Post by RichieB » Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:34 pm

Popcorn Friday perhaps

ABClub
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Re: Borthwick

Post by ABClub » Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:07 pm

FrontRowUnionMember wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 6:32 pm
A number of the new signings spoke highly of GM and during talks about joining, his vision for the club going forward was something to buy into.
Seems he has the vision, but lacks the coaching ability to execute it.
Borthwick has a reputation for attention to game detail and technical skills.
Seems like they could be a good fit to me.

Is Humphrey's the best of hands on coaches, or does he take a more broad view and allow Ackerman to shape the playing side. Likewise, McCall generally seems to sit in the background looking at the bigger picture, and allows Sanderson to be the hands on influence.
Could Murphy and Borthwick strike the same balance? My one concern would be, should Borthwick as head coach have had scope to bring in his own team around him to manage the attack, defence, breakdown etc, rather than inherit a setup.
If Borthwick does join then we are yet to see who will stay and go. Presumably Borthwick will take charge of the forwards, with Stankovich coaching the scrum as Hatley did for England.

Bakewell followed Borthwick as forwards coach at Bristol so there may be some come ground there but Borthwick joining would surely raise questions of Bakewell's position longer term.

I believe Joe Worsley is availble after his stint as Bordeaux Begles caretaker coach. He's highly regarded as a defence coach and would be a good acquisition in my opinion. Blake returning has never sat particularly well.

Tiglon
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Re: Borthwick

Post by Tiglon » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:23 pm

It's likely that GM was always lined up for a DoR role, there's no other reason to have kept him on this long. Perhaps part of that vision he sold to players has always been to bring in a head coach.

Being higher up and less hands on requires different skills, maybe the board have always seen it as a case of him holding the fort until the right person is found and he can be moved to DoR. Not the craziest plan ever, considering the need for stability, but it all rests on GM actually turning out to be a good DoR and us avoiding relegation this season! Oh, and Borthwick being as good as we all think/hope he is.

G.K
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Re: Borthwick

Post by G.K » Thu Nov 14, 2019 9:25 pm

The thing that concerns me is that we tried the DOR / Head Coach thing before with Cockers / Maugers and it didn't work out too well (though better than the mess Tigers are in now).

Legend as he was as a player it makes no sense to me to retain Geordan, probably a better option would be Mike Ford DOR and Borthwick as Head Coach and forwards coach and recruit a decent backs coach.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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