England WC squad

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BFG
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Re: England WC squad

Post by BFG »

I think it's a good squad but unfortunately certain things haven't been done well.
Nothing that wrong with a centre like Francis apart from the fact that Eddie has wasted 16 caps on Te'o and the idea that he wants to play with more size in that area and has now binned him.
Crucial experience and work on alternative team tactics other than boshing it up the middle.
I have doubts about Cockanasiga's defence at this stage, see the Davies try that should never be scored at that level.
I get that Heinz is mature, might be easy to get along with and takes instructions well, but see the partial failure not to recognise Cockanasiga's flaws for the Davies try and England clearly have a squad that doesn't know eachother very well.
McConnachie is a talent, I like this player a lot, but uncapped at this stage isn't the best situation.
All this has taken place whilst potential key players in this area like Tuilagi have had extended periods out.
England have a good squad but the timing of it all doesn't seem that great to me.
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Re: England WC squad

Post by JP14 »

Francis is a better player than what people have credited him for? And who would have replaced him if Te’o hadn’t had a scrap? Cipriani, a player who no longer has the legs to cover fullback so is just a flyhalf. Piers’ flexibility is a crucial aspect of this squad as it allows Jones to rotate several players with just one player.
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Re: England WC squad

Post by Chobbsy »

JP14 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:49 pm Francis is a better player than what people have credited him for? And who would have replaced him if Te’o hadn’t had a scrap? Cipriani, a player who no longer has the legs to cover fullback so is just a flyhalf. Piers’ flexibility is a crucial aspect of this squad as it allows Jones to rotate several players with just one player.
Having spoken to Piers on Sunday he is not as small as you would think, I believe he may have bulked up somewhat
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BFG
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Re: England WC squad

Post by BFG »

JP14 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:49 pm Francis is a better player than what people have credited him for? And who would have replaced him if Te’o hadn’t had a scrap? Cipriani, a player who no longer has the legs to cover fullback so is just a flyhalf. Piers’ flexibility is a crucial aspect of this squad as it allows Jones to rotate several players with just one player.
I disagree about Cips legs.
Regarding Francis, whether you like the player or not with about four caps to his name amongst this team it's not ideal to be expecting anyone to be that flexible and do it successfully in a World Cup.
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Re: England WC squad

Post by LE18 »

I hope Genge's selection has taken that state school chip off his shoulder. Would he have made a World Cup selection earlier if he had gone to a public school? I think Not.
Dan Cole has made it, I don't believe Eddie dropped him, he told him to go back to the club and get as much rest as he could as he would be going. Good luck best wishes to all of our Tigers.
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Re: England WC squad

Post by sam16111986 »

BFG wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:50 pm
JP14 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:49 pm Francis is a better player than what people have credited him for? And who would have replaced him if Te’o hadn’t had a scrap? Cipriani, a player who no longer has the legs to cover fullback so is just a flyhalf. Piers’ flexibility is a crucial aspect of this squad as it allows Jones to rotate several players with just one player.
I disagree about Cips legs.
Regarding Francis, whether you like the player or not with about four caps to his name amongst this team it's not ideal to be expecting anyone to be that flexible and do it successfully in a World Cup.
I think Cipriani's misdemeanours plus his poor points kicking stats (Twelvetrees ended up with the responsibility at Glaws) probably did for him. It's been a while since he played 15 and although he could do a job there Jones doesn't like his secondary playmaker at 15 he likes them in the midfield. Presumably the same reason Goode has been overlooked.
LE18 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:20 pm I hope Genge's selection has taken that state school chip off his shoulder. Would he have made a World Cup selection earlier if he had gone to a public school? I think Not.
Dan Cole has made it, I don't believe Eddie dropped him, he told him to go back to the club and get as much rest as he could as he would be going. Good luck best wishes to all of our Tigers.
I think Jones knew that Dan needed to ease his work load and that England needed to start getting more experience into their tighthead options. Jones has a contract after the RWC and realistically this is Dan's international swan song.
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Re: England WC squad

Post by BFG »

sam16111986 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:05 pm
BFG wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:50 pm
JP14 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:49 pm Francis is a better player than what people have credited him for? And who would have replaced him if Te’o hadn’t had a scrap? Cipriani, a player who no longer has the legs to cover fullback so is just a flyhalf. Piers’ flexibility is a crucial aspect of this squad as it allows Jones to rotate several players with just one player.
I disagree about Cips legs.
Regarding Francis, whether you like the player or not with about four caps to his name amongst this team it's not ideal to be expecting anyone to be that flexible and do it successfully in a World Cup.
I think Cipriani's misdemeanours plus his poor points kicking stats (Twelvetrees ended up with the responsibility at Glaws) probably did for him. It's been a while since he played 15 and although he could do a job there Jones doesn't like his secondary playmaker at 15 he likes them in the midfield. Presumably the same reason Goode has been overlooked.
Personal opinion but for me Lozowski is the better utility option.
Lozowski is familiar with Farrell's game and vice versa and is that good that he can play just about anywhere inside or outside, he destroyed Leicester last season.
I've never seen him have a bad game, his defence is rock solid and were it may choice then Lozowski would have all Te'o's caps to date.
To be honest I'd also have Cips in as Jones has opted for a new cap at scrum half in Heinz.
Apart from Cips being a stand out player the two play together at club.
There are only two scrum halves in which case if Ford is considered the third scrum half then it makes sense to have another proper 10.
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Re: England WC squad

Post by sam16111986 »

BFG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:45 am
sam16111986 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:05 pm
BFG wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:50 pm

I disagree about Cips legs.
Regarding Francis, whether you like the player or not with about four caps to his name amongst this team it's not ideal to be expecting anyone to be that flexible and do it successfully in a World Cup.
I think Cipriani's misdemeanours plus his poor points kicking stats (Twelvetrees ended up with the responsibility at Glaws) probably did for him. It's been a while since he played 15 and although he could do a job there Jones doesn't like his secondary playmaker at 15 he likes them in the midfield. Presumably the same reason Goode has been overlooked.
Personal opinion but for me Lozowski is the better utility option.
Lozowski is familiar with Farrell's game and vice versa and is that good that he can play just about anywhere inside or outside, he destroyed Leicester last season.
I've never seen him have a bad game, his defence is rock solid and were it may choice then Lozowski would have all Te'o's caps to date.
To be honest I'd also have Cips in as Jones has opted for a new cap at scrum half in Heinz.
Apart from Cips being a stand out player the two play together at club.
There are only two scrum halves in which case if Ford is considered the third scrum half then it makes sense to have another proper 10.
I'd much rather have Lozowski in the squad than Francis personally. More pace and can play across the midfield as opposed to just 10/12.

I'd rather have a third scrum half than a third flyhalf and I'm not sure where else you'd trim the squad to add an extra player. Hence why Cipriani was always unlikely to get a look in.
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Re: England WC squad

Post by JP14 »

BFG wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:50 pm
JP14 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:49 pm Francis is a better player than what people have credited him for? And who would have replaced him if Te’o hadn’t had a scrap? Cipriani, a player who no longer has the legs to cover fullback so is just a flyhalf. Piers’ flexibility is a crucial aspect of this squad as it allows Jones to rotate several players with just one player.
I disagree about Cips legs.
Regarding Francis, whether you like the player or not with about four caps to his name amongst this team it's not ideal to be expecting anyone to be that flexible and do it successfully in a World Cup.
We’ll have to wait and see.
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JP14
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Re: England WC squad

Post by JP14 »

sam16111986 wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:22 am
BFG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:45 am
sam16111986 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:05 pm

I think Cipriani's misdemeanours plus his poor points kicking stats (Twelvetrees ended up with the responsibility at Glaws) probably did for him. It's been a while since he played 15 and although he could do a job there Jones doesn't like his secondary playmaker at 15 he likes them in the midfield. Presumably the same reason Goode has been overlooked.
Personal opinion but for me Lozowski is the better utility option.
Lozowski is familiar with Farrell's game and vice versa and is that good that he can play just about anywhere inside or outside, he destroyed Leicester last season.
I've never seen him have a bad game, his defence is rock solid and were it may choice then Lozowski would have all Te'o's caps to date.
To be honest I'd also have Cips in as Jones has opted for a new cap at scrum half in Heinz.
Apart from Cips being a stand out player the two play together at club.
There are only two scrum halves in which case if Ford is considered the third scrum half then it makes sense to have another proper 10.
I'd much rather have Lozowski in the squad than Francis personally. More pace and can play across the midfield as opposed to just 10/12.

I'd rather have a third scrum half than a third flyhalf and I'm not sure where else you'd trim the squad to add an extra player. Hence why Cipriani was always unlikely to get a look in.
Is 31 players the absolute limit though?
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Re: England WC squad

Post by SthrnTiger »

sam16111986 wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:22 am
BFG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:45 am
sam16111986 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:05 pm

I think Cipriani's misdemeanours plus his poor points kicking stats (Twelvetrees ended up with the responsibility at Glaws) probably did for him. It's been a while since he played 15 and although he could do a job there Jones doesn't like his secondary playmaker at 15 he likes them in the midfield. Presumably the same reason Goode has been overlooked.
Personal opinion but for me Lozowski is the better utility option.
Lozowski is familiar with Farrell's game and vice versa and is that good that he can play just about anywhere inside or outside, he destroyed Leicester last season.
I've never seen him have a bad game, his defence is rock solid and were it may choice then Lozowski would have all Te'o's caps to date.
To be honest I'd also have Cips in as Jones has opted for a new cap at scrum half in Heinz.
Apart from Cips being a stand out player the two play together at club.
There are only two scrum halves in which case if Ford is considered the third scrum half then it makes sense to have another proper 10.
I'd much rather have Lozowski in the squad than Francis personally. More pace and can play across the midfield as opposed to just 10/12.

I'd rather have a third scrum half than a third flyhalf and I'm not sure where else you'd trim the squad to add an extra player. Hence why Cipriani was always unlikely to get a look in.
Lozowski has been great for Saracens all year but when given the opportunity for England hasn’t performed. The Japan game was his big chance and he was poor, missing crucial tackles. On club form he’s miles ahead of Francis so is really frustrating but there’s only so many chances get at international rugby.
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Re: England WC squad

Post by BFG »

SthrnTiger wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:53 pm
sam16111986 wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:22 am
BFG wrote: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:45 am

Personal opinion but for me Lozowski is the better utility option.
Lozowski is familiar with Farrell's game and vice versa and is that good that he can play just about anywhere inside or outside, he destroyed Leicester last season.
I've never seen him have a bad game, his defence is rock solid and were it may choice then Lozowski would have all Te'o's caps to date.
To be honest I'd also have Cips in as Jones has opted for a new cap at scrum half in Heinz.
Apart from Cips being a stand out player the two play together at club.
There are only two scrum halves in which case if Ford is considered the third scrum half then it makes sense to have another proper 10.
I'd much rather have Lozowski in the squad than Francis personally. More pace and can play across the midfield as opposed to just 10/12.

I'd rather have a third scrum half than a third flyhalf and I'm not sure where else you'd trim the squad to add an extra player. Hence why Cipriani was always unlikely to get a look in.
Lozowski has been great for Saracens all year but when given the opportunity for England hasn’t performed. The Japan game was his big chance and he was poor, missing crucial tackles. On club form he’s miles ahead of Francis so is really frustrating but there’s only so many chances get at international rugby.
Was that the Nowell at 13 experiment?
I think maybe a few players have been made to look a bit worse by Eddie's chopping and changing, some seem to get away with it and some don't!
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Re: England WC squad

Post by teds »

LE18 wrote: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:20 pm I hope Genge's selection has taken that state school chip off his shoulder. Would he have made a World Cup selection earlier if he had gone to a public school? I think Not.
Dan Cole has made it, I don't believe Eddie dropped him, he told him to go back to the club and get as much rest as he could as he would be going. Good luck best wishes to all of our Tigers.
I don’t think Genge has a chip on his shoulder at all. Genge has pointed out openly and entirely accurately that boys in public schools have greater chances than boys who go to state schools. He is 100% right.

On Dan Cole, I do agree.
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