Saracens Cap Investigation

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TigerBoy1880
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by TigerBoy1880 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:15 am

trendylfj wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:27 am
fentiger wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:14 am
Daily Fail saying if Saracens found guilty a lot of clubs want them expelled, sorry unable to do a link from my phone!
Sadly if that was to happen they would go to court and if they then lost I suspect without any evidence, that they would try to join the French - not enough money in the Celtic league. Would others join them??? - very possibly.
Let them join the French League. If they don’t like the rules of the Premiership and have issues following them, then let them go elsewhere.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BFG » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:03 am

I'm no doubt going to upset a few here and I make no apology for my opinion, but trying put any dispute over rules aside for a moment I think that helping employees is a good thing just as long as that help is given to all and not just a select expensive few.
I do believe that many clubs assist with accommodation and it is a particularly difficult issue for players who move around the country, and is a camp abroad not a holiday, how these things are interpreted can differ to suit!
I wish more employers would look after employees similarly instead of being motivated only by profits.
Seeing the reasons for a gutsy player like Denton to need to retire this week only brings it home more, I read that he can't run without getting a headache.
Perhaps Saracens are more forward thinking than many are giving credit for, as employees their players certainly do respond positively in their work.
With all the talk of player welfare rugby needs to decide which direction it wants to take in my opinion.
Rugby has changed dramatically in recent years and perhaps the rules need to shift with the times.
Is what Sarries are doing wrong or are the rules outdated!

TigerBoy1880
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by TigerBoy1880 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:19 am

BFG wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:03 am
I'm no doubt going to upset a few here and I make no apology for my opinion, but trying put any dispute over rules aside for a moment I think that helping employees is a good thing just as long as that help is given to all and not just a select expensive few.
I do believe that many clubs assist with accommodation and it is a particularly difficult issue for players who move around the country, and is a camp abroad not a holiday, how these things are interpreted can differ to suit!
I wish more employers would look after employees similarly instead of being motivated only by profits.
Seeing the reasons for a gutsy player like Denton to need to retire this week only brings it home more, I read that he can't run without getting a headache.
Perhaps Saracens are more forward thinking than many are giving credit for, as employees their players certainly do respond positively in their work.
With all the talk of player welfare rugby needs to decide which direction it wants to take in my opinion.
Rugby has changed dramatically in recent years and perhaps the rules need to shift with the times.
Is what Sarries are doing wrong or are the rules outdated!
Whether the rules are outdated or not, if the rule is in place then Sarries have broken it.

If they are genuinely helping players prepare for their future after rugby, they could employee people to help give advice to these players who already earn enough money to make sure they can secure a healthy future financially for their family.

This way they can help their players and abide by the rules instead of breaking the rule to get better players to join them, which is the main and only reason for doing it, in my opinion. They are just making it sound like they are doing a good thing but really they are just doing to so they can buy success.

sk 88
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by sk 88 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:28 am

TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:19 am
Whether the rules are outdated or not, if the rule is in place then Sarries have broken it.

If they are genuinely helping players prepare for their future after rugby, they could employee people to help give advice to these players who already earn enough money to make sure they can secure a healthy future financially for their family.

This way they can help their players and abide by the rules instead of breaking the rule to get better players to join them, which is the main and only reason for doing it, in my opinion. They are just making it sound like they are doing a good thing but really they are just doing to so they can buy success.
Exactly, they are helping those players and they have convinced themselves that's why they do it. The fact it materially increases their salary cap is, apparently, just an ancillary bonus. :smt042
fentiger wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:14 am
Daily Fail saying if Saracens found guilty a lot of clubs want them expelled, sorry unable to do a link from my phone!
Anonymous quotes, around a punishment not in the rule book. That would just expose PRL to a massive lawsuit that would probably very quickly spill over into an investigation about how they very clearly operate as a cartel.

Such a stupid, bitter and short sighted idea I can readily believe some of the idiots that run Premiership Rugby are pursuing it.

Situation seems clear to me, one of three options;

1) it is against the rules. Saracens face the punishments described in the regulations and there is a firesale of players to get them under the cap this year.
2) The rules are deemed unclear, they are changed in future to be clear. Saracens face the punishment in the regulations for not being upfront about loopholes (which is a fine) and have to clear out players to meet the cap as well as liquidate the investments. Probably given a season's grace given we are so close to the season now.
3) This is deemed within the rules. Saracens are fine, people within PRL either scrap the cap, put up the dosh needed to compete or stop whinging.

Option 2 is the biggest fudge so if I were Phil Blake that is where my money would be going.
Goooooodeeeeeyyyyy!

JP14
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by JP14 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:12 pm

Saracens will get a points deduction at least the club’s blood-thirst will not avail.
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

BFG
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BFG » Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:12 pm

TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:19 am
BFG wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:03 am
I'm no doubt going to upset a few here and I make no apology for my opinion, but trying put any dispute over rules aside for a moment I think that helping employees is a good thing just as long as that help is given to all and not just a select expensive few.
I do believe that many clubs assist with accommodation and it is a particularly difficult issue for players who move around the country, and is a camp abroad not a holiday, how these things are interpreted can differ to suit!
I wish more employers would look after employees similarly instead of being motivated only by profits.
Seeing the reasons for a gutsy player like Denton to need to retire this week only brings it home more, I read that he can't run without getting a headache.
Perhaps Saracens are more forward thinking than many are giving credit for, as employees their players certainly do respond positively in their work.
With all the talk of player welfare rugby needs to decide which direction it wants to take in my opinion.
Rugby has changed dramatically in recent years and perhaps the rules need to shift with the times.
Is what Sarries are doing wrong or are the rules outdated!
Whether the rules are outdated or not, if the rule is in place then Sarries have broken it.

If they are genuinely helping players prepare for their future after rugby, they could employee people to help give advice to these players who already earn enough money to make sure they can secure a healthy future financially for their family.

This way they can help their players and abide by the rules instead of breaking the rule to get better players to join them, which is the main and only reason for doing it, in my opinion. They are just making it sound like they are doing a good thing but really they are just doing to so they can buy success.
That it brings success is not a new thing.
British companies thrived on it before privatisation and share profits took over.
It's how clubs such as Bournville now exist.
Housing built for employees, new schools and holiday pay, sports and social clubs.
What Sarries are doing as a community idea is nothing new, it's the risk and rewards that are in question and given that the game has changed dramatically in terms of the impact on players long term health then times are changing and in my opinion it is a requirement for a top level player to be financially secure for retirement these days.

wellstiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by wellstiger » Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:57 pm

Say What...............

Were supposed to be respecting a Salary cap and looking after player welfare. All clubs should be respecting the criteria respectively. Therefore we have a balanced Premier League.

Give me a break........Bring back the respect. This could tarnish Rugby Union. Just as a verdict will only be buried until the World Cup is over and the Prem/ Cup seasons are practically over. After all we can't have this hanging over players heads.
Shame on RFU for not getting this sorted earlier.

Hot_Charlie
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Hot_Charlie » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:47 pm

wellstiger wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:57 pm

Shame on RFU for not getting this sorted earlier.
Nowt to do with the RFU at the moment? All Prem Rugby surely.

Either way, I fear Saracens will drag domestic rugby - as we know it - down with them.

mothy
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by mothy » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:11 am

I think we all as rugby fans want to do the best for our players, their welfare and financial well being.
Surly all we are asking for is a level playing field that is fair for all clubs ?
We and nobody can account for the differences in wealth and investment made in individual clubs and that is not what this is all about ?

Parity across the board, and if you could include France in that to get a fairer European competition all the better!!

h's dad
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by h's dad » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:30 am

Hot_Charlie wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:29 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:00 pm
JP14 wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:02 am
Whilst a points deduction would be lovely, I doubt it would happen especially since it’s a World Cup year and Saracens have a lot of players away.
That would be their own fault for breaking the rules. I’d expect the same punishment whether it’s done this season or next season.
Just not on last season’s results; they’d still finish above us!
In addition to the 35 points maximum in the table, clubs can be penalised 6 points for failure to cooperate. We would then be above Saracens. Also, the table is a 'starting point' and can be varied up or down by the Disciplinary Panel. Wishful thinking or what?
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by h's dad » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:35 am

BFG wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:12 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:19 am
BFG wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:03 am
I'm no doubt going to upset a few here and I make no apology for my opinion, but trying put any dispute over rules aside for a moment I think that helping employees is a good thing just as long as that help is given to all and not just a select expensive few.
I do believe that many clubs assist with accommodation and it is a particularly difficult issue for players who move around the country, and is a camp abroad not a holiday, how these things are interpreted can differ to suit!
I wish more employers would look after employees similarly instead of being motivated only by profits.
Seeing the reasons for a gutsy player like Denton to need to retire this week only brings it home more, I read that he can't run without getting a headache.
Perhaps Saracens are more forward thinking than many are giving credit for, as employees their players certainly do respond positively in their work.
With all the talk of player welfare rugby needs to decide which direction it wants to take in my opinion.
Rugby has changed dramatically in recent years and perhaps the rules need to shift with the times.
Is what Sarries are doing wrong or are the rules outdated!
Whether the rules are outdated or not, if the rule is in place then Sarries have broken it.

If they are genuinely helping players prepare for their future after rugby, they could employee people to help give advice to these players who already earn enough money to make sure they can secure a healthy future financially for their family.

This way they can help their players and abide by the rules instead of breaking the rule to get better players to join them, which is the main and only reason for doing it, in my opinion. They are just making it sound like they are doing a good thing but really they are just doing to so they can buy success.
That it brings success is not a new thing.
British companies thrived on it before privatisation and share profits took over.
It's how clubs such as Bournville now exist.
Housing built for employees, new schools and holiday pay, sports and social clubs.
What Sarries are doing as a community idea is nothing new, it's the risk and rewards that are in question and given that the game has changed dramatically in terms of the impact on players long term health then times are changing and in my opinion it is a requirement for a top level player to be financially secure for retirement these days.
There is a difference between investing for your workplace community with their families and barely disguised bungs for your top paid senior players.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:45 am

I started this trail and have added to it regularly to keep it on the 'front page' because I feel this issue is so important for the competition.

I would be lying to claim that initially I didn't resent the 'rise' of Saracens, coming in tandem with the decline of Tigers. But I have come to admire their on field operation. The team is the best English Club side I have ever seen. McCall is a class act. Their players conduct themselves professionally. However I am just a biased fan and I do not know any more about Saracens than the average fan. I certainly don't know if they are in breach of the cap or not. However if this was Tigers I know I would want the matter to be expedited swiftly.

However, just like just about everyone on this forum, I do know people in the sport who are well connected, and who have no particular axe to grind, and it is interesting to listen to them talk about clubs. They are generous in their praise for Exeter. Critical of Tigers behind the scenes operation, but have a healthy regard for those same people and are keen for the club to be strong again..

However when it come to Saracens? The combined view is the same. One refers to "the disdain" that the ownership has for all the other clubs. Another the "contempt they have for the very agreements they have signed". They refer to marketing / PR being used systematically to distract attention. Their response to that puff line 'Something special is happening at Saracens', was "it certainly is". One draws attention to the sudden departure of Edward Griffiths in 2012 just as the first investigation was getting underway, and a "lack of political will, the wrong time".

It is interesting why decent, unassuming people, with no particular axe to grind, have such admiration for the Saracens players, but such strong and antagonistic feelings for the people higher up.

I hope this time the political will is there to dig to the truth, whatever the consequences. For all of the clubs in the competition, including Saracens.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by BFG » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:14 am

h's dad wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:35 am
BFG wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:12 pm
TigerBoy1880 wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:19 am


Whether the rules are outdated or not, if the rule is in place then Sarries have broken it.

If they are genuinely helping players prepare for their future after rugby, they could employee people to help give advice to these players who already earn enough money to make sure they can secure a healthy future financially for their family.

This way they can help their players and abide by the rules instead of breaking the rule to get better players to join them, which is the main and only reason for doing it, in my opinion. They are just making it sound like they are doing a good thing but really they are just doing to so they can buy success.
That it brings success is not a new thing.
British companies thrived on it before privatisation and share profits took over.
It's how clubs such as Bournville now exist.
Housing built for employees, new schools and holiday pay, sports and social clubs.
What Sarries are doing as a community idea is nothing new, it's the risk and rewards that are in question and given that the game has changed dramatically in terms of the impact on players long term health then times are changing and in my opinion it is a requirement for a top level player to be financially secure for retirement these days.
There is a difference between investing for your workplace community with their families and barely disguised bungs for your top paid senior players.
I look at it from a player perspective that they can potentially finish playing with knees too wobbly to play in the garden with the kids or heads so knocked about that they forget to pick them up from school.
That the financial shield from any potential future issues for players should need to be disguised as bungs perhaps indicates how behind the times the regulations might be.
Just my opinion.

Scott1
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Scott1 » Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:54 am

Nothing significant will happen. Fine and rules changed to suit most likely outcome

Wayne Richardson Fan Club
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:28 pm

Perhaps we should return to letters vice numbers on our shirt backs & see what happens to us?

Personally I think we should regardless.
To win is not as important as playing with style!

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