Saracens Cap Investigation

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teds
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by teds » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:18 pm

fleabane wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:30 pm
I think the question being asked is around the subject of players being encouraged and helped to set up business enterprises to provide them with something after their retirement (which, of course, could be after their next match!).

The idea is a good one, and should be followed by other clubs.

The issue is how the enterprises were set up, how are they financed, who are the shareholders, and whether they are sufficiently separate from the club in accounting terms.

You can bet that Sarries anticipated the questions, and will have already addressed them in the enterprises setup. If they have, good on ‘em!

Giving players, not all of whom are millionaires, a future is to be recommended.

To me there is quite a difference between a) funding/subsidising players to learn a trade or to earn a qualification, even counselling for how to adapt to normal life, and b) providing them with an investment usually in property, though possibly as startup capital for a coffee shop etc.

On b, Id rather see clubs set up a mutual fund to provide for all players if and when their playing careers are cut short, and even to provide for a fixed fee parachute payment for a players first season out of the game.

Redstripeman
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Redstripeman » Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:31 pm

fleabane wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:30 pm
I think the question being asked is around the subject of players being encouraged and helped to set up business enterprises to provide them with something after their retirement (which, of course, could be after their next match!).

The idea is a good one, and should be followed by other clubs.

The issue is how the enterprises were set up, how are they financed, who are the shareholders, and whether they are sufficiently separate from the club in accounting terms.

You can bet that Sarries anticipated the questions, and will have already addressed them in the enterprises setup. If they have, good on ‘em!

Giving players, not all of whom are millionaires, a future is to be recommended.
.. not sure I can agree with your post!
What we need is transparency not creative accounting, suggesting we all go down that line for the betterment of the players comes across as naivety. They have set this up to circumvent the rules, it obviously works for them and the sooner the RFU wakes up the better.

Dangerous4
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Dangerous4 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:20 pm

Redstripeman wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:31 pm
fleabane wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:30 pm
I think the question being asked is around the subject of players being encouraged and helped to set up business enterprises to provide them with something after their retirement (which, of course, could be after their next match!).

The idea is a good one, and should be followed by other clubs.

The issue is how the enterprises were set up, how are they financed, who are the shareholders, and whether they are sufficiently separate from the club in accounting terms.

You can bet that Sarries anticipated the questions, and will have already addressed them in the enterprises setup. If they have, good on ‘em!

Giving players, not all of whom are millionaires, a future is to be recommended.
.. not sure I can agree with your post!
What we need is transparency not creative accounting, suggesting we all go down that line for the betterment of the players comes across as naivety. They have set this up to circumvent the rules, it obviously works for them and the sooner the RFU wakes up the better.
This.
+1

fleabane
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by fleabane » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:45 am

Transparency is essential, and perhaps it is, let’s wait and see without prejudging the situation.

Any lack of transparency in previous investigations has been down to the RFU / PRL, not the clubs.

I am certainly not naive. Many players need help in sorting out their lives after rugby, and most of the is going to come from the clubs. Is giving them courses in business management and accounts to be termed additional to salary? Is it a benefit in kind? Is guaranteeing a loan a financial « gift »? I wrote and used to run a post graduate course for students wanting to start their own businesses, and it isn’t easy! At least Sarries are doing , which may or may not be judged as being above and beyond the cap.

I don’t buy the « creative accounting » argument, a comment usually put by people who disapprove of the situation. If the action is within the rules of accounting, and the accounts are signed off, “creative accounting” accusations can land you in difficulty.
Valhalla I am coming!

drc_007
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by drc_007 » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:26 am

Redstripeman wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 5:31 pm
They have set this up to circumvent the rules, it obviously works for them and the sooner the RFU wakes up the better.
Not sure it has anything to do with the RFU?

GETHIN EXILE
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by GETHIN EXILE » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:30 pm

the whole point is if they were not saracens players would the investment be there ? answer NO! if they are being given any "help" to set up a business it is only due to them being saracens players and therefore this money should count as part of their salary

Redstripeman
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Redstripeman » Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:57 pm

fleabane wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:45 am
Transparency is essential, and perhaps it is, let’s wait and see without prejudging the situation.

Any lack of transparency in previous investigations has been down to the RFU / PRL, not the clubs.

I am certainly not naive. Many players need help in sorting out their lives after rugby, and most of the is going to come from the clubs. Is giving them courses in business management and accounts to be termed additional to salary? Is it a benefit in kind? Is guaranteeing a loan a financial « gift »? I wrote and used to run a post graduate course for students wanting to start their own businesses, and it isn’t easy! At least Sarries are doing , which may or may not be judged as being above and beyond the cap.

I don’t buy the « creative accounting » argument, a comment usually put by people who disapprove of the situation. If the action is within the rules of accounting, and the accounts are signed off, “creative accounting” accusations can land you in difficulty.
... got to say that signed off accounts are more and more not worth the paper they are written on!!
The company dictates what is included within the report and are abetted by the Accountants. Take a look at the big boys that have gone down and you will find the books are no reflection of the actual business operations.

Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:59 am

And now we are in July and still no report. March, April, May, June, July. It's as if it's been swept under the carpet. Again.

Dangerous4
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Dangerous4 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:25 pm

Traveller wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:59 am
And now we are in July and still no report. March, April, May, June, July. It's as if it's been swept under the carpet. Again.
It's a big carpet, so it's easily swept under. :smt045

johnthegriff
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by johnthegriff » Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:53 pm

Problem is that the investment in business money appears not to be from Saracens accounts, it is personal investment by Nigel Wray so not subject to Premiership audit, it may be a bit of a fiddle but it is a clever fiddle not in the spirit of the cap agreement but probably not illegal. If one of our wealthy investors were to suggest going int partnership, say in a quarry or even a hotel business with a player it would have nothing to do with the club or the Premiership. Of course that depends on the result of the result of the investigation into Saracens.

Cagey Tiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Cagey Tiger » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:10 pm

I smell a big, fat rat :smt012

wellstiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by wellstiger » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:21 pm

The wage cap was introduced among other things so that all clubs could compete on a level playing field without any particular club becoming a Super club. They ultimately buy trophies and Titles.
We did not want Rugby to go down the path of wendy ball where players are able to attract £80MIL - £160MIL.

This action is not in the spirit of the game, even if found that Sarries have done nothing wrong within the Laws.

If nothing is done then the flood gates will open and Ticket prices will ultimately soar.
Before some poster says players should attract a decent wage I agree. Then set the cape accordingly. :smt013
.

Traveller
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Traveller » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:58 am

johnthegriff wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:53 pm
Problem is that the investment in business money appears not to be from Saracens accounts, it is personal investment by Nigel Wray so not subject to Premiership audit, it may be a bit of a fiddle but it is a clever fiddle not in the spirit of the cap agreement but probably not illegal. If one of our wealthy investors were to suggest going int partnership, say in a quarry or even a hotel business with a player it would have nothing to do with the club or the Premiership. Of course that depends on the result of the result of the investigation into Saracens.
Any vaguely competent lawyer would have been able to draw up a Heads of Agreement for the Premiership clubs to have stopped that circumvention. of the caps intent. If they didn't then the cap is pointless. Which is why I keep on harping on about the investigation. Either have one, investigate properly and publish. Or don't. But don't say you will investigate and then hope the problem goes away.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Grimlish » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:28 pm

The regulations are pretty clear imo and should mean all third party arrangements are included in the cap. What Sarries have done is little different from the days of Shamateurism. I don't see much problem in the arrangement so long as it counts toward the cap , quite the reverse. What matters is whether they are to be held to account for a clear breach of the regs as they stand.

h's dad
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by h's dad » Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:30 pm

Traveller wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:58 am
johnthegriff wrote:
Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:53 pm
Problem is that the investment in business money appears not to be from Saracens accounts, it is personal investment by Nigel Wray so not subject to Premiership audit, it may be a bit of a fiddle but it is a clever fiddle not in the spirit of the cap agreement but probably not illegal. If one of our wealthy investors were to suggest going int partnership, say in a quarry or even a hotel business with a player it would have nothing to do with the club or the Premiership. Of course that depends on the result of the result of the investigation into Saracens.
Any vaguely competent lawyer would have been able to draw up a Heads of Agreement for the Premiership clubs to have stopped that circumvention. of the caps intent. If they didn't then the cap is pointless. Which is why I keep on harping on about the investigation. Either have one, investigate properly and publish. Or don't. But don't say you will investigate and then hope the problem goes away.
They could draw up wording to prevent that circumvention. They did draw up wording to prevent that circumvention. I do wish people would read the regulations before spouting off about them. The investigate and publish issue is another kettle of fish entirely.
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

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