Saracens are relegated!

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anz3001
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by anz3001 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:03 pm

Bristol Tiger wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:05 pm
ashleytiger wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:43 pm
This from BBC Sport: How the hell can it be possible, with the squad they have, given they are no longer able to use the shared companies scam? Have their stars taken a massive cut in salary?
I have no insider knowledge, but using the facts available, the level of fine is £3 per £1 "in breach" as it is over £600k per season. This aligns with the maximum points deduction they have received.

Given that three seasons have been listed, and a fine of £5.4m quoted (rounded up slightly) then the fine per season is £1.8m (meaning they overpaid by £600k per season). The press have listed 5 players with investments that contravene the rules (namely the Vunipolas, Wigglesworth, Itoje and Farrell). Depends on whether you count this as 4 investments or 5 players, but on average, each player was being "overpaid" £120k per season (or £150k per investment).

So, the five named individuals need to give up £120k annual investment each. Their salary stays the same (which I assume is pretty decent still). Or, the club has to find a salary saving of £600k from their £7m allowed cap to pay salary rather than investment.

Disclaimer: all figures rounded and based on what has been published. Legal expenses are also included in the fine so if these are substantial, then the above figures on salaries should be lower - so I think this is a worse case.
Do we know for sure it was an annual investment?

It’s possible, I think, that the businesses were signed over to the players. Perhaps last season, when this started to emerge, Wray washed his hands of the business. The benefit in kind could have been calculated already and they’d be all clear this season, maybe.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by strawclearer » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:25 pm

fleabane wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:21 pm
Dr Flashman “ On the plus point we won’t be bottom for a few weeks so that’s a bonus!”

And we can all sweat, watching them creep closer and closer, week by week, until . . . . :smt010
I'm sorry - I can't do that. I had an adrenaline surge in the Crumbie during the Gloucester match and I've not broken out into a sweat ever since!
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by jgriffin » Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:55 pm

TBH if I was Rowe/Baxter I'd be in meltdown. Got off VERY lightly. Pity they didn't uncover the regime when Smit was there.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CitizenSmiff » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:08 pm

Only 7 games' worth of points potentially, for 3+ years of cheating, and the horrible cheats haven't had the decency to apologise. Pathetic all round.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:46 pm

Redstripeman wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:06 pm
Bristol Tiger wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:05 pm
ashleytiger wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:43 pm
This from BBC Sport: How the hell can it be possible, with the squad they have, given they are no longer able to use the shared companies scam? Have their stars taken a massive cut in salary?
I have no insider knowledge, but using the facts available, the level of fine is £3 per £1 "in breach" as it is over £600k per season. This aligns with the maximum points deduction they have received.

Given that three seasons have been listed, and a fine of £5.4m quoted (rounded up slightly) then the fine per season is £1.8m (meaning they overpaid by £600k per season). The press have listed 5 players with investments that contravene the rules (namely the Vunipolas, Wigglesworth, Itoje and Farrell). Depends on whether you count this as 4 investments or 5 players, but on average, each player was being "overpaid" £120k per season (or £150k per investment).

So, the five named individuals need to give up £120k annual investment each. Their salary stays the same (which I assume is pretty decent still). Or, the club has to find a salary saving of £600k from their £7m allowed cap to pay salary rather than investment.

Disclaimer: all figures rounded and based on what has been published. Legal expenses are also included in the fine so if these are substantial, then the above figures on salaries should be lower - so I think this is a worse case.
.. so, what you mean is, they got away with it!!
Good explanation Bristol Tiger. I have read that costs increase the sum owed to around £6m and that the £5.4m is the fine itself.

That doesn't mean they get away with it - they have received the maximum possible punishment (it would be rather hypocritical for the other clubs to claim that the maximum penalties are insufficient or unfair because, just as is the case for Saracens, these are the rules that everyone signed up to) and they will have to take one of the steps described by Bristol Tiger to avoid breaking the rules this year. I believe compliance with the salary cap is assessed after the end of the season when all salary has been declared, so it would be impossible for the Premiership to accuse Saracens of breaking the cap this season until that point.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by ashleytiger » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:08 pm

"The Times understands that Saracens were able to state their compliance this season without having to make any cuts to the squad because co-investments count under the salary cap only for the year in which they were made, so do not carry forward"

Hmmm so does that mean that Wray only invested in year one..... but since that the players involved continue to reap whatever profits accrue from their companies?

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by anz3001 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:53 pm

ashleytiger wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:08 pm


Hmmm so does that mean that Wray only invested in year one..... but since that the players involved continue to reap whatever profits accrue from their companies?
As per my post above, I expect that’s exactly what’s happened. There has probably been multiple investments over the years, but they knew this was coming. Wray ceases involvement with the companies (last year for instance) takes the hit and leaves the players with the businesses moving forward.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Bristol Tiger » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:04 pm

anz3001 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:53 pm
ashleytiger wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:08 pm


Hmmm so does that mean that Wray only invested in year one..... but since that the players involved continue to reap whatever profits accrue from their companies?
As per my post above, I expect that’s exactly what’s happened. There has probably been multiple investments over the years, but they knew this was coming. Wray ceases involvement with the companies (last year for instance) takes the hit and leaves the players with the businesses moving forward.
Given the fine covers three seasons, then I would imagine that Wray has been investing in all of the last three seasons and not just the first one. We have no idea what was invested when, unless the investigation is ever published, so my figures just average out the last three years to get a feel for the scale of “cheating”.

Agree - I assume Wray doesn’t invest this year but the assets stay with the player or the company the players own. Likewise any income from those investments I assume is the players to own and not counted in the salary cap as it is not a club provided source anymore.

What may be interesting is what was Daly promised.. maybe he was expecting a similar arrangement and clearly they can’t honour that.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Coops » Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:41 pm

Bristol Tiger wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:05 pm
ashleytiger wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:43 pm
This from BBC Sport: How the hell can it be possible, with the squad they have, given they are no longer able to use the shared companies scam? Have their stars taken a massive cut in salary?
I have no insider knowledge, but using the facts available, the level of fine is £3 per £1 "in breach" as it is over £600k per season. This aligns with the maximum points deduction they have received.

Given that three seasons have been listed, and a fine of £5.4m quoted (rounded up slightly) then the fine per season is £1.8m (meaning they overpaid by £600k per season). The press have listed 5 players with investments that contravene the rules (namely the Vunipolas, Wigglesworth, Itoje and Farrell). Depends on whether you count this as 4 investments or 5 players, but on average, each player was being "overpaid" £120k per season (or £150k per investment).

So, the five named individuals need to give up £120k annual investment each. Their salary stays the same (which I assume is pretty decent still). Or, the club has to find a salary saving of £600k from their £7m allowed cap to pay salary rather than investment.

Disclaimer: all figures rounded and based on what has been published. Legal expenses are also included in the fine so if these are substantial, then the above figures on salaries should be lower - so I think this is a worse case.
Farrell only has the one company under his name (and has only ever been the director).

Itoje on the otherhand setup MN Property Solutions with Graham Cowan (one of Wray's former advisors/business partners)

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... 0/officers

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CitizenSmiff » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:30 pm

If Sarries pull their 6N players to fend off relegation we should 100% do the same.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by northerntiger » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:47 pm

To be fair, I think the only person who has suggested they might is Eddie Jones. Can they do that, though? I thought there would be rules in place to stop that.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by h's dad » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:59 am

Bristol Tiger wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:05 pm
ashleytiger wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:43 pm
This from BBC Sport: How the hell can it be possible, with the squad they have, given they are no longer able to use the shared companies scam? Have their stars taken a massive cut in salary?
I have no insider knowledge, but using the facts available, the level of fine is £3 per £1 "in breach" as it is over £600k per season. This aligns with the maximum points deduction they have received.

Given that three seasons have been listed, and a fine of £5.4m quoted (rounded up slightly) then the fine per season is £1.8m (meaning they overpaid by £600k per season). The press have listed 5 players with investments that contravene the rules (namely the Vunipolas, Wigglesworth, Itoje and Farrell). Depends on whether you count this as 4 investments or 5 players, but on average, each player was being "overpaid" £120k per season (or £150k per investment).

So, the five named individuals need to give up £120k annual investment each. Their salary stays the same (which I assume is pretty decent still). Or, the club has to find a salary saving of £600k from their £7m allowed cap to pay salary rather than investment.

Disclaimer: all figures rounded and based on what has been published. Legal expenses are also included in the fine so if these are substantial, then the above figures on salaries should be lower - so I think this is a worse case.
Notwithstanding press speculation, I would have thought the investments involving Itoje and Farrell would not contravene the SCR as they are (presumably) the marquee players and their remuneration is exempt from the cap calculation.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Bristol Tiger » Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:47 am

h's dad wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:59 am
Notwithstanding press speculation, I would have thought the investments involving Itoje and Farrell would not contravene the SCR as they are (presumably) the marquee players and their remuneration is exempt from the cap calculation.
Quite possible - in which case the other three players are getting £200k each (on average) per season. It is also possible that Itoje and Farrell weren't the marquee players but now are so that they can keep the higher levels of remuneration for this season. I don't think we will ever get to see the details of exactly what was going on so speculation all round!

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by JP14 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:36 am

The agreement between the RFU and the PRL is that Eddie Jones can select whoever he wants from the Premiership/Championship and the players would have to be released by the clubs.

Personally i doubt most of the finalists will play much in the Six Nations, Jones needs to develop depth in the front row, at scrumhalf and fullback.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by wellstiger » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:04 am

Isn't Rugby becoming farcical.
Galacticos of the French clubs underperforming away from home.
Cheating Prem clubs.( allegedly ) Buying success.
Considering dishonouring call ups to England.

Can we please clean our act up NOW. :smt024

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