Smudge wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:36 pm
Mightymouse wrote:-
My thoughts are this: It is irrelevant what Wray or Genge (both vested interests) think about the idea of a salary cap. everyone knew and have known for years the system we are playing under. We can argue in the future about the merits or demerits of the cap and decide how to go forward in the best interests of the sport, the players the owners and the fans. However when a system of rules are in place then that is what must be adhered to. Saracens (all involved knew what was happening most especially Wray). They have systematically cheated for years. a couple of years ago they had a warning shot across the bows and got away with it, but they have continued. They have been rewarded with trophies and no doubt financial reward. They have had it at the expense of players owners and fans of teams and clubs that have played by the rules.
I have absolutely no sympathy with anyone within their organisation, I only sympathise with hose those who have been unfairly cheated out of what was rightfully theirs, whether that be Exeter or Newcastle or any of the premiership teams.
Actually I cannot believe how lightly they have got away with it. What! No relegation? No immediate removal of players? NO suspension or banning of either officials or club? How dare Wray complain or appeal he has been dealt with extremely leniently. Lets compare and contrast this pathetic punishment to Olympic drug cheats .. banned for 2 years and stripped of medals. However I thought rugby was far stricter than that. in fact we have a direct comparison to be made. The very director of rugby at Newcastle can be doubly aggrieved. Firstly his team was relegated instead of a cheating team but he himself can look at a punishment he received himself only a few years ago. Dean Richards was BANNED FOR 3 YEARS for cheating in one game ..... Wray is still in charge of a club still in the Premiership that has systematically cheated in every game and the whole system for years. How is this in anyway justifiable?)
I could not agree more. Excellent post MM
Agree with all of this. The agreement / disagreement with the principle of the Salary Cap is bogus. They signed up to it and so should abide by it. However there is a legitimate argument that clubs who develop English internationals through academies should not face problems down the line in retaining them.
The cap already contains amendments (injury accommodations / Marquee players) . Wray should simply be arguing for an increase in the money for England players through academies. I believe it is currently £60k, which does not seem to be to be adequate compensation for developing Itoje or Tuilagi! I can see a strong argument for a major overhaul. £125-150,000 seems closer to the mark. It would give Saracens £1m+/- additional legitimate cap to spend. It would be difficult to argue against and would benefit English rugby. Clubs who couldn't spend that amount, might not like it, but it would be difficult to argue against it on ethical grounds.
It just needs to be an open and transparent solution, not the habitual Nigel 'Honesty and Humility' Wray approach to things.
strawclearer wrote: ↑Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:41 pm
I genuinely feel for the Sarries' supporters - rugby fans like the rest of us - but I'm really not enjoying this game. I'm watching a club that's cheated - and is still cheating. A shamed club that's going to appeal with players who expect us to believe they didn't know.
I'm not sure about the 'I feel for the Sarries supporters - rugby fans like the rest of us'.
It's been troubling to read and hear from many of them adopting a 'your jealous', 'its just because we win' mindset
The trouble is many of these fans have bought in to a man with money. They are hooked on winning and allowed his sins to become their sins. They put their own perceived self interests above the interests of the competition. It's the psychology of accommodation. It's what corruption does. It's not about money, its about values, attitudes and behaviours. Junkies don't question the methods of their dealer.
The more transgressive the emperor has become (a line could have been draw in 2015) so the more accommodating many supporters have become, and they are now full entwined in a dance to the death with him, prepared to go down for the sake of winning.
kk20gb30 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:18 pm
After hasty consultation with their legal team , and in an effort to gain a quick resolution to any potential controversy Saracens RFC have issued the following statement and formal grounds for appeal against the recent Premiership Rugby ruling with regard to alleged Salary Cap infringements :
We misplaced the decimal point...
The confusion was caused by the uncertainty over Brexit....
Our accountants said it would be 'fine' (no pun intended)...
it wasn't our idea...
We got caught..(how did this get here ? Please remove N.W)..
.
What we actually meant to put in place was ... (to be confirmed at a much later date)...
They just enjoy playing for us...
We thought we were still covered by the 2015 cover up , err payment , err ...
There is a general election on Dec 12...
It wasn't us ..
We forgot to take into account the National Minimum Wage...
If the Salary Cap did not exist the rules could not have been broken (not that they were anyway)...
its all a misunderstanding...
This is victimization....
To follow this through would cause undoubted mental anguish and unnecessary strain to those players being subjected to what we regard as unwarranted and unjust public scrutiny - not to mention the huge financial implications for those involved - of which there is none...
They just needed second jobs to supplement their income...
is that really the time ?...
We will add more corroboration to our case as soon as we are able to (fabricate it )
During the period in question we were a registered charity.... (however this cannot be corroborated at this present time due to circumstances beyond our control)....
We strongly suspect a foreign government to have brought undue influence to bear on this matter....
We had previously agreed in principle that any profit from these investments (of which there would not be any as investments can go down as well as up) would be used to supplement free TV licences for OAP's.Now , because of all this who knows what will become of Tiny Tim....
Seemingly heading rapidly toward senility .....Not long or far to go now , in fact, getting worse daily.....
Posting form Ireland, so the cheating has had no real impact on us. Have to say i'm a little surprised how easy the media are going on them. Apart from Harlequins and Exeter, most people seem to be tip-toeing around it. Maybe that'll change with time but it does appear they have gotten off lightly.
Also, listening to Chris Ashton on the BBC podcast this morning was pretty surreal. Wray only did it because hes a nice guy. It was only done for the right reason. He couldn't really admit that it was even against the rules, and just suggested that Monye statement of fact was just an interpretation.
Logorrhea wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:28 am
Posting form Ireland, so the cheating has had no real impact on us. Have to say i'm a little surprised how easy the media are going on them. Apart from Harlequins and Exeter, most people seem to be tip-toeing around it. Maybe that'll change with time but it does appear they have gotten off lightly.
Also, listening to Chris Ashton on the BBC podcast this morning was pretty surreal. Wray only did it because hes a nice guy. It was only done for the right reason. He couldn't really admit that it was even against the rules, and just suggested that Monye statement of fact was just an interpretation.
Apparently Saracens have appointed a 'Communications Company' to deal with the issue. Perhaps to adjust opinions, perhaps they have Thought Police to deal with subversives. 1 plus 1 = 3 and I love Big Brother.
Logorrhea wrote: ↑Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:28 am
Posting form Ireland, so the cheating has had no real impact on us. Have to say i'm a little surprised how easy the media are going on them. Apart from Harlequins and Exeter, most people seem to be tip-toeing around it. Maybe that'll change with time but it does appear they have gotten off lightly.
Also, listening to Chris Ashton on the BBC podcast this morning was pretty surreal. Wray only did it because hes a nice guy. It was only done for the right reason. He couldn't really admit that it was even against the rules, and just suggested that Monye statement of fact was just an interpretation.
Part of that is to do with not wanting to give the awful cheats any more ammunition for their appeal. There's been some suggestion in the UK press that the clubs are banding together in preparation for a civil action, in which case public statements at this point would be a bad idea.
First they steal your words and then they steal their meaning. Otherwise known as PR.
Humility and honesty. But as Simon Sinek writes in Start with Why page 67. "If you need to have 'honesty' on your wall to remind you to do it, then you probably have bigger problems anyway."
Would it be breaking the rules if a club signed a contract with a player at £X per annum and only paid them £Y per annum to keep within the cap, whist playing for the club, and deferring the difference until after they had retired? X-Y per annum played.
LE18 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:21 pm
Would it be breaking the rules if a club signed a contract with a player at £X per annum and only paid them £Y per annum to keep within the cap, whist playing for the club, and deferring the difference until after they had retired? X-Y per annum played.
Already been done for years for players outside the Prem especially in Ireland, and if you happen have retired to South Africa......
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Could a club sign a player to only play in European competitions, therefore not being included in the premiership salary cap?
Not saying this is either a good or bad idea, just wondering....
ads wrote: ↑Thu Nov 14, 2019 1:44 pm
Could a club sign a player to only play in European competitions, therefore not being included in the premiership salary cap?
Not saying this is either a good or bad idea, just wondering....
I wondered the same, however even if so it would be a heck of an ask to integrate within the team just for those games
The cap isn't just there to create a level playing field in the Prem but also to try to temper rapid wage inflation and prevent sides from bankrupting themselves by piling funds into players (short term investment) rather than infrastructure (long term investment).
Richmond under Ashley Levett's ownership are perfect case study of what the cap is there to try to prevent.
It's easy to forget how young rugby is as a professional sport. In terms of longevity and sustainability professional clubs are still finding their feet, the cap is there to aid that sustainability.
Another question, Could a club director buy 4 very very expensive cars and sell them for £1 each to each of the 4 players, who are then at liberty to sell them? Similar he might buy houses and then sell them?
Does anyone have an answer regarding the legality of the deferred payment until after retirement?
