Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

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Tiglon
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Tiglon » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:53 pm

Traveller wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:35 am
I'm think of booking Will Fraser who runs the 'Saracens Way' Organisational leadership programme to give a seminar at my company. Although the company I started a decade or, has made a post tax profit every year, and employs a handful of people, I'm always keen to learn.

Referrals on the Saracens website describe how Will Fraser goes into the detail of how Saracens position as 'the preeminent rugby organisation in Europe" (albeit one which hasn't turned a profit in two decades) is predicated on the four core values of Honesty, Discipline, Work Rate and Humility' which 'are unique expressions of the Saracens Way'.

I wonder if anyone could offer any additional supporting referrals.
The main thing to learn from Saracens' organisational leadership is that it doesn't matter whether something is true, as long as you can get your team to buy into it.

CitizenSmiff
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CitizenSmiff » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:32 pm

wellstiger wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:37 am
Well I am looking forward to the coverage on BT. Shed -v- Fez heads.
Bet the commentary team fudges the issue. Bet Mc Call and Sanderson fudges the issue. Camera pan in and hold on Wray
(if attending)
Bet the Shed doesn't fudge the issue . Come on the Shed. :smt023

Stowford Press any one. :smt007
Indeed! In many ways there's a lot of responsibility on the Glos fans as it sets a precident for everybody else. If they let Sarries off easy it sets the tone for the rest of the season. I bet all eight of the Sarries' travelling fans are looking forward to this one.

LE18
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by LE18 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:38 pm

Its being well discussed by the BT reporters.

Big Dai
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Big Dai » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:40 pm

Lady from the Daily Snail "not at liberty to comment" on potential investigations into other clubs' activities. "It's not just about Saracens'.

Just hope Loretta was right about us.
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ay2oh
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by ay2oh » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:48 pm

Big Dai wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:40 pm
Lady from the Daily Snail "not at liberty to comment" on potential investigations into other clubs' activities. "It's not just about Saracens'.

Just hope Loretta was right about us.
She did not say “it’s not just about saracens” she actually said “ it’s not about saracens it’s about the salary cap. If you remove the just it presents a completely different meaning. :smt002
A2O

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Big Dai » Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:56 pm

ay2oh wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:48 pm
Big Dai wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:40 pm
Lady from the Daily Snail "not at liberty to comment" on potential investigations into other clubs' activities. "It's not just about Saracens'.

Just hope Loretta was right about us.
She did not say “it’s not just about saracens” she actually said “ it’s not about saracens it’s about the salary cap. If you remove the just it presents a completely different meaning. :smt002
Old age and partial deafness! (Apologies) However you put it the implications for other clubs are there.
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POSTIGER
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by POSTIGER » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:13 pm

Interesting response to Saracens from the Glaws fans. More or less total silence as they walked on to the pitch.
I saw Marika Vunibaka play

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CitizenSmiff » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:35 pm

I think the Remembrance arrangements made it a bit tasteless to boo or jeer, would have appreciated the BT commentators joining in. They've been annoyingly impartial so far.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by strawclearer » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:41 pm

I genuinely feel for the Sarries' supporters - rugby fans like the rest of us - but I'm really not enjoying this game. I'm watching a club that's cheated - and is still cheating. A shamed club that's going to appeal with players who expect us to believe they didn't know.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by mightymouse » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:48 pm

My thoughts are this: It is irrelevant what Wray or Genge (both vested interests) think about the idea of a salary cap. everyone knew and have known for years the system we are playing under. We can argue in the future about the merits or demerits of the cap and decide how to go forward in the best interests of the sport, the players the owners and the fans. However when a system of rules are in place then that is what must be adhered to. Saracens (all involved knew what was happening most especially Wray). They have systematically cheated for years. a couple of years ago they had a warning shot across the bows and got away with it, but they have continued. They have been rewarded with trophies and no doubt financial reward. They have had it at the expense of players owners and fans of teams and clubs that have played by the rules.
I have absolutely no sympathy with anyone within their organisation, I only sympathise with hose those who have been unfairly cheated out of what was rightfully theirs, whether that be Exeter or Newcastle or any of the premiership teams.
Actually I cannot believe how lightly they have got away with it. What! No relegation? No immediate removal of players? NO suspension or banning of either officials or club? How dare Wray complain or appeal he has been dealt with extremely leniently. Lets compare and contrast this pathetic punishment to Olympic drug cheats .. banned for 2 years and stripped of medals. However I thought rugby was far stricter than that. in fact we have a direct comparison to be made. The very director of rugby at Newcastle can be doubly aggrieved. Firstly his team was relegated instead of a cheating team but he himself can look at a punishment he received himself only a few years ago. Dean Richards was BANNED FOR 3 YEARS for cheating in one game ..... Wray is still in charge of a club still in the Premiership that has systematically cheated in every game and the whole system for years. How is this in anyway justifiable?

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CitizenSmiff » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:50 pm

strawclearer wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:41 pm
I genuinely feel for the Sarries' supporters - rugby fans like the rest of us - but I'm really not enjoying this game. I'm watching a club that's cheated - and is still cheating. A shamed club that's going to appeal with players who expect us to believe they didn't know.
Same, I've turned it off already. Might flick back over if Gloucester start winning. Every time Will Skelton appears I can't help but think 'You can't afford him!'.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Smudge » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:36 pm

Mightymouse wrote:-
My thoughts are this: It is irrelevant what Wray or Genge (both vested interests) think about the idea of a salary cap. everyone knew and have known for years the system we are playing under. We can argue in the future about the merits or demerits of the cap and decide how to go forward in the best interests of the sport, the players the owners and the fans. However when a system of rules are in place then that is what must be adhered to. Saracens (all involved knew what was happening most especially Wray). They have systematically cheated for years. a couple of years ago they had a warning shot across the bows and got away with it, but they have continued. They have been rewarded with trophies and no doubt financial reward. They have had it at the expense of players owners and fans of teams and clubs that have played by the rules.
I have absolutely no sympathy with anyone within their organisation, I only sympathise with hose those who have been unfairly cheated out of what was rightfully theirs, whether that be Exeter or Newcastle or any of the premiership teams.
Actually I cannot believe how lightly they have got away with it. What! No relegation? No immediate removal of players? NO suspension or banning of either officials or club? How dare Wray complain or appeal he has been dealt with extremely leniently. Lets compare and contrast this pathetic punishment to Olympic drug cheats .. banned for 2 years and stripped of medals. However I thought rugby was far stricter than that. in fact we have a direct comparison to be made. The very director of rugby at Newcastle can be doubly aggrieved. Firstly his team was relegated instead of a cheating team but he himself can look at a punishment he received himself only a few years ago. Dean Richards was BANNED FOR 3 YEARS for cheating in one game ..... Wray is still in charge of a club still in the Premiership that has systematically cheated in every game and the whole system for years. How is this in anyway justifiable?)
I could not agree more. Excellent post MM
A life long Tiger

CJ
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by CJ » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:17 pm

Ditto. Excellent post, MM.

Not a jock
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Not a jock » Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:33 pm

The Premier Rugby Salary Cap documentation for 2019-20 is here:

https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/p ... b-2019.pdf

From page 38 onward, there's a lot about what does, or does not, constitute salary. I guess Wray and/or his lawyers have been through this with a fine tooth comb and believe they have found a loophole. Presumably PRL's lawyers beg to differ.

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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by drc_007 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:30 am

So for a 3 year breach they get a 36 point deduction and £5M fine.

Could Saracens continue as they are and accept that each year they will get a 12 point deduction and a £1.5M fine? They could still get into top 4?

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