Saracens are relegated!

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h's dad
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Re: Saracens Issue Grounds For Appeal...

Post by h's dad »

Cagey Tiger wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:17 pm
CitizenSmiff wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:49 pm Wray's actual defence of 'Investments aren't income' isn't any less ludicrous than any of the ones listed here!
From what I've read, he said "investments arentsalary", therefore outside the salary cap. Splitting hairs and trying to get round the salary cap on a technicality. The cap is there to stop a few sugar daddies dominating the Premiership and to stop a death spiral as clubs pay more and more (that they cannot afford) on players, just to keep vaguely competitive. Other clubs generally (I hope) have adhered to the cap as it is seen as necessary for the longer term future of professional rugby in England. By trying to wriggle around it, Wray is putting himself and Sarries above the rest, potentially at the expense of everyone else.
It's not a technicality. This sort of thing is clearly covered by the cap. It would seem that Wray and his (presumably) highly paid advisors are as unfamiliar with the detail of the SCR as many of the posters on here have been. The big surprise is that, given the reluctance of PRL to do anything about enforcing the cap and trying to sweep breaches under the carpet over many seasons, Saracens have actually been so blatant and inept as to force PRL into taking very belated public action.
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strawclearer
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by strawclearer »

Wray reminds me of Grouty in Porridge - puts winning above everything else.
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h's dad
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by h's dad »

strawclearer wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:26 pm Wray reminds me of Grouty in Porridge - puts winning above everything else.
You would not want to play cards with Wray; or with anyone who supports his behaviour, of which there seem to be a few commenting in the national press.
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Jimmy Skitz
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Re: Saracens Issue Grounds For Appeal...

Post by Jimmy Skitz »

h's dad wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:10 pm
Cagey Tiger wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:17 pm
CitizenSmiff wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:49 pm Wray's actual defence of 'Investments aren't income' isn't any less ludicrous than any of the ones listed here!
From what I've read, he said "investments arentsalary", therefore outside the salary cap. Splitting hairs and trying to get round the salary cap on a technicality. The cap is there to stop a few sugar daddies dominating the Premiership and to stop a death spiral as clubs pay more and more (that they cannot afford) on players, just to keep vaguely competitive. Other clubs generally (I hope) have adhered to the cap as it is seen as necessary for the longer term future of professional rugby in England. By trying to wriggle around it, Wray is putting himself and Sarries above the rest, potentially at the expense of everyone else.
It's not a technicality. This sort of thing is clearly covered by the cap. It would seem that Wray and his (presumably) highly paid advisors are as unfamiliar with the detail of the SCR as many of the posters on here have been. The big surprise is that, given the reluctance of PRL to do anything about enforcing the cap and trying to sweep breaches under the carpet over many seasons, Saracens have actually been so blatant and inept as to force PRL into taking very belated public action.
the signing of Elliot Daly seemed to be the final straw, when almost everyone in Rugby is saying "where the hell is he going to play" about a starting England international joining an English team due to the depth they already have at the positions he plays it cannot be ignored
wellstiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by wellstiger »

WRAY is playing the game - until the appeal is heard - business as usual.
No points deduction
Building new stand goes ahead
Players remain in post
Comments and criticism will be deflected as "We cannot possibly comment as an appeal is on going"
Any one making a written comment against him or the club will be open to liabous action.

Great. Total disrespect for Rugby and a total disrespect tom other clubs who have played by the Cap rules.
JP14
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by JP14 »

Don’t feel too much sympathy for Exeter but Baxter makes a good point.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by Scuttle »

It sounds like nothing will happen until into the New Year. There will be time needed for prep but one hopes it does not drag out too long for everyone's sakes.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Scuttle »

Will S wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:56 pm
strawclearer wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:46 am I'll just chuck a couple of tweets in...

Guy Mercer: "For what it’s worth I disagree with the cap. If an owner wants to pay people let them pay. Risk for players is huge & people should earn as much as possible while they can. The cap squeezes the middle out of squads so teams load up on low paid kids and superstars."

In reply, Ellis Genge: "Ere ere, no cap - got academy kids earning absolute peanuts not being able to pay for accommodation or food for the month yet expected to be the next big thing and act professionally. It’s madness to me."
I get Genge's point but I don't know many professions where the 18 / 19 year old newbies don't struggle to make ends meet. It's the same in pretty much any profession - you join on peanuts (and hope to be the next big thing) and if you do make it, guess what, you make a very good living. I don't feel too sorry for the academy kids. I would have swapped my early years for doing what they do in a heartbeat.
If it is true as stated on here that academy players get around £30k pa that sounds pretty good for an 18 or 19 year old....or even 21, 22,23 year old
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by LE18 »

Scuttle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:56 pm
Will S wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:56 pm
strawclearer wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:46 am I'll just chuck a couple of tweets in...

Guy Mercer: "For what it’s worth I disagree with the cap. If an owner wants to pay people let them pay. Risk for players is huge & people should earn as much as possible while they can. The cap squeezes the middle out of squads so teams load up on low paid kids and superstars."

In reply, Ellis Genge: "Ere ere, no cap - got academy kids earning absolute peanuts not being able to pay for accommodation or food for the month yet expected to be the next big thing and act professionally. It’s madness to me."
I get Genge's point but I don't know many professions where the 18 / 19 year old newbies don't struggle to make ends meet. It's the same in pretty much any profession - you join on peanuts (and hope to be the next big thing) and if you do make it, guess what, you make a very good living. I don't feel too sorry for the academy kids. I would have swapped my early years for doing what they do in a heartbeat.
If it is true as stated on here that academy players get around £30k pa that sounds pretty good for an 18 or 19 year old....or even 21, 22,23 year old
Wonder if most of those are still living at home supported by their parents?
Cardiff Tig
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Cardiff Tig »

Scuttle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:56 pm If it is true as stated on here that academy players get around £30k pa that sounds pretty good for an 18 or 19 year old....or even 21, 22,23 year old
Except that 22 year old is almost certainly going to have medical issues later in life as a direct result of his job, and a significantly higher than normal chance of life changing injury.

Doesn't seem that much to me.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by CitizenSmiff »

Cardiff Tig wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:56 pm
Scuttle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:56 pm If it is true as stated on here that academy players get around £30k pa that sounds pretty good for an 18 or 19 year old....or even 21, 22,23 year old
Except that 22 year old is almost certainly going to have medical issues later in life as a direct result of his job, and a significantly higher than normal chance of life changing injury.

Doesn't seem that much to me.
Indeed. Also the upper ceiling is 30k, doesn't mean that's what they actually make.
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Hot_Charlie »

Cardiff Tig wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 6:56 pm
Scuttle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:56 pm If it is true as stated on here that academy players get around £30k pa that sounds pretty good for an 18 or 19 year old....or even 21, 22,23 year old
Except that 22 year old is almost certainly going to have medical issues later in life as a direct result of his job, and a significantly higher than normal chance of life changing injury.

Doesn't seem that much to me.
Which surely is what insurance is for.
Hot_Charlie
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation

Post by Hot_Charlie »

Smudge wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:57 pm The revue/appeal won't be the end of it. Newcastle, Bristol and Irish were relegated during the years in question and I
understand are poised to issue their own litigation. They lost millions in consequence and at least Newcastle can claim that their home and away defeats to Saracens contributed greatly to it.
As some action has been taken now (we all knew what was happening). As for fairness? Dean Richards was banned from rugby for three years for "bloodgate" and t it was only for that single offence. How can Wray be considered a fit and proper person to own and operate a Rugby Club when he has been cheating thus for years? Many times worse than Deano's offence? Surely he should be banned from the game entirely and for life? The club should suffer the same fate as Richmond, who's only crime was to became insolvent? The last time I heard, Saracens were over £50 million in debt and yet able to operate as they have been. They are an affront to the game.
I think every other Premiership club (and Newcastle) should be suing them. Saracens have made the last 3 years of Premiership results a farce, the integrity of every round of results has been decimated from the weekends at full strength to the international windows.

No one knows what the pecking order would have been. Clubs may have kept coaches, been able to more evenly balance their squads.

Instead we have 3 Prem tables not worth the paper they’re printed on.
wellstiger
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by wellstiger »

IF the cap ceiling is low then this needs looking at.
If clubs break the ceiling cap then they need looking at.
Whether our young players are underpaid or not is irrelevant to the question of breaches of ceiling cap.
That is another question that needs to be addressed in due course. In the here and now, with the ceiling cap as it is/was, the club broke the rules( allegedly). :smt018
Lets hope the appeal is done and dusted before the 6N - I'm not holding my breath. :smt018
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Re: Saracens Cap Investigation / Grounds for Appeal

Post by GETHIN EXILE »

here's a suggestion rather than a peanuts to Wray £5m fine would it not have been better to restrict Saracens cap by £2m for each of the next 3 seasons to reflect 3 seasons of known breaches and if they can be shown to be breaching the cap this season then the restriction should apply for the following season as well
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