London Irish: an immorality tale?

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BFG
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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by BFG » Thu May 16, 2019 9:48 am

Smudge wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:32 pm
The bottom line is, how well does he play rugby?
Not a week goes by when someone on here is pleading for the club to sign some hard nut enforcers.
Something I agree with but they will certainly not be choirboys or youth club leaders. They will also play hard off the field.
Yes, I have toured with some real hard nuts who never took a backwards step, on or off the field. Blokes who were not afraid to dive in among the feet and put everything on line for the team. They were brilliant people and have gone on to great success in business and the professions.. What happened in post match "celebrations" is certainly not for publication!
If that makes me a dinosaur tuff :censored:.
Odd really as the lads I played and toured with although many being hard nuts and on the field in particular, and enjoying a few bevvies off it and generally getting up to stuff, at the same time they were gentlemen and would never harm a woman in particular.
That's not to say that stuff that should not have happened never happened in the past, but suggesting others past antics have any resemblance to this topic and without evidence, and condoning poor behaviour in this case based on past antics is out of order.
This girl was left bloodied and in tears, and the situation was serious enough to be at trial for 42 weeks.
Within the boundaries of what in my opinion would be common decency that should not be expected or accepted.

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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by kend » Thu May 16, 2019 12:33 pm

BFG wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 9:48 am
Smudge wrote:
Wed May 15, 2019 5:32 pm
The bottom line is, how well does he play rugby?
Not a week goes by when someone on here is pleading for the club to sign some hard nut enforcers.
Something I agree with but they will certainly not be choirboys or youth club leaders. They will also play hard off the field.
Yes, I have toured with some real hard nuts who never took a backwards step, on or off the field. Blokes who were not afraid to dive in among the feet and put everything on line for the team. They were brilliant people and have gone on to great success in business and the professions.. What happened in post match "celebrations" is certainly not for publication!
If that makes me a dinosaur tuff :censored:.
Odd really as the lads I played and toured with although many being hard nuts and on the field in particular, and enjoying a few bevvies off it and generally getting up to stuff, at the same time they were gentlemen and would never harm a woman in particular.
That's not to say that stuff that should not have happened never happened in the past, but suggesting others past antics have any resemblance to this topic and without evidence, and condoning poor behaviour in this case based on past antics is out of order.
This girl was left bloodied and in tears, and the situation was serious enough to be at trial for 42 weeks.
Within the boundaries of what in my opinion would be common decency that should not be expected or accepted.
I have to agree with the BFG here. Whether the sort of behaviour Jackson and his cohorts engaged in was ever acceptable is highly questionable, but either way the attitudes of the past are no guide to behaviour in the present. Times change. If today’s ‘enforcers’ played the same way, they would spend more time off the pitch suspended for violent and foul play than on it. I think Murphy made this comment quite recently.

Jackson and his cohorts are professional players in a professional game. They made free choices to behave as they did and presumably had ample opportunity to choose otherwise. Their contracts were not terminated because of the court case, they were terminated because their behaviour was below the standard Ulster and Ireland could accept. All pro sports contracts have these sort of clauses, if only because sponsors get very upset if their brand is associated with negativity.

What we are discussing here are values and societal norms. Once it is accepted that misogyny, racism, homophobia or indeed any form of prejudice damages individuals and society, what happened in the past cannot be a justification for continuing with the same attitudes.

Perhaps the question is whether Jackson can rehabilitate himself. For me the answer must be yes, because natural justice demands the possibility of redemption. But that must surely be by relevant action rather than being good at rugby. Perhaps If he used some of his reported £500k to fund a rape crisis centre in Brentford, or donations to one of the women’s charities?

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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by fleabane » Thu May 16, 2019 12:37 pm

Excellent post, kend.
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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by Scuttle » Thu May 16, 2019 12:46 pm

fleabane wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 12:37 pm
Excellent post, kend.
+1
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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by maire88 » Thu May 16, 2019 1:11 pm

Anyone who is on the unoffy may have seen my post on there but I’m not going to repeat what I said. Anyone who is that interested my username is similar on there and that pretty much sets out my point of view.
However a poster on the unoffy made a very good point. This was in Northern Ireland where women’s rights aren’t terribly high on the agenda so the poor girl was probably already at a disadvantage.
As a woman myself I have already said to my fiancé that there’s not a hope in hell am I attending the London Irish game when they play at WR next season regardless of whether Jackson is playing or not. I also object to the view that ‘girls throw themselves at rugby players’ some do yes but others do not and they get unwanted attention forced on them anyway - although wait they must have asked for it mustn’t they because they happened to be in the vicinity at the time.
Well here’s a shocking fact.
Not all women are floozies who see a rich, successful young man and throw themselves at their feet!!
There really shouldn’t be the ‘dont you know who I am’ mentality. Too many cases don’t get to court because the justice system is set up against them. I read of a case of a rapist in my home town whose victim was told ‘did you not enjoy it, oh you must be a lesbian, you’re a single mother so you were obviously asking for it’
Rugby these days is a game for everyone, not just blokes who want to get drunk and rowdy. As someone else correctly pointed out, ladies teams and mini and junior teams are a big part of clubs (although some of the ladies teams can be very raucous as I observed when I was at uni but they didn’t go around harassing men- I went on a few socials and the team kept themselves to themselves) it’s time some of these players started behaving like the role models they’re supposed to be.
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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by jgriffin » Thu May 16, 2019 1:24 pm

Excellent post, reflecting exactly how I and several others feel.
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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by Smudge » Thu May 16, 2019 1:25 pm

Out of order? You may think so in your sheltered suburban set but you are certainly not of the contemporary world.
The kind of high jinks I am referring to, definitely still goes on and much closer to home than you think. The fact that the lads
don't broadcast it may be fooling you but I can assure you it does happen and is widespread.
Pop singers, Musicians, Actors, MPs, Lords, film stars, TV presenters, company directors, etc frequently engage in the most lurid behaviour "off stage". Yet that does not (in most cases) prevent them from doing what they do to earn a living.
Has Jagger ever lost a gig because of his mars bar party? Has a certain leading surgeon ever missed an operation because he regularly indulges in "roman" orgies" and wife swapping? The list is endless and yet you expect fit, young single sportsmen, who are inundated with willing and eager females to be choir boys?
I say again, if your criterion for recruitment of players is their morality we are doomed as a rugby club.
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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by jgriffin » Thu May 16, 2019 1:30 pm

Smudge wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:25 pm
Out of order? You may think so in your sheltered suburban set but you are certainly not of the contemporary world.
The kind of high jinks I am referring to, definitely still goes on and much closer to home than you think. The fact that the lads
don't broadcast it may be fooling you but I can assure you it does happen and is widespread.
Pop singers, Musicians, Actors, MPs, Lords, film stars, TV presenters, company directors, etc frequently engage in the most lurid behaviour "off stage". Yet that does not (in most cases) prevent them from doing what they do to earn a living.
Has Jagger ever lost a gig because of his mars bar party? Has a certain leading surgeon ever missed an operation because he regularly indulges in "roman" orgies" and wife swapping? The list is endless and yet you expect fit, young single sportsmen, who are inundated with willing and eager females to be choir boys?
I say again, if your criterion for recruitment of players is their morality we are doomed as a rugby club.
Actually I think your post is out of time in the #MeToo era. Many of the 'indulgers' have been called to task or quietly sidelined, or even imprisoned. And the Mars Bar never happened, was an invention of a reporter.
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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by ourla » Thu May 16, 2019 2:00 pm

Smudge wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:25 pm
I can assure you it does happen and is widespread.
How? As in how can you assure us? What credentials, what evidence have you to say and do so?
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Mark62
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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by Mark62 » Thu May 16, 2019 2:29 pm

A lot of posters seem to be very much not on out doorstep, which I understand.

Jackson was found not guilty, had he been tried in a legal system where a not proven verdict was available, the consensus was this would have happened.
The fact remains that something happened that night, that he was involved with, which left that young lady emotionally distraught and physically harmed.
The evidence that became public knowledge, was such that Ulster’s main sponsors threatened to pull the plug if he was resigned. If the rumours are true Sales main sponsors also made a similar threat, which is why his deal there was pulled at the last minute, and similar with Exeter.
Has his behaviour dropped below that expected of a professional sportsman, yes absolutely, should he be pilloried for the rest of his life for it, is for each individual to decide.
Tigers aren’t without issue, as I would imagine the other professional clubs aren’t, Manu’s run in with a taxi door mirror, and 2 wpcs was dealt with swiftly by the club, as was Ciprianiks behaviour in Jersey last year, dealt with by Gloucester.
There is legend that a great and much missed Tigers Fijian player, once came off the bus following an away fixture, so out of control that it took 6 police officers to restrain him, but it was hushed up and dealt with by the club.
Clubs need to police themselves and ensure that the players follow a strict code of conduct, and if they act outside the law then the law needs to deal with it.
One final question, if a London Irish player, had a relative or close friend who had been through the same ordeal as the Jackson case, and that player turned round to Les Kiss and said there is no way I’m playing with him, who would the club back

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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by Smudge » Thu May 16, 2019 2:49 pm

Ourla wrote:
How? As in how can you assure us? What credentials, what evidence have you to say and do so?
You will just have to take my word for it. I have no reason to lie. 60 years involved with rugby, playing and administration.
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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by mol2 » Thu May 16, 2019 3:50 pm

Would you want your child to be involved with this sort of thing?

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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by JP14 » Thu May 16, 2019 3:53 pm

Excellent post Maire88, the generalisations on this forum are downright shocking, Smudge is entitled to his views but I hope he knows that it’s an unpopular and morally unacceptable opinion in these modern times, he is also treading a thin line with his previous homophobic outburst of Nigel Owens!
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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by BFG » Thu May 16, 2019 4:05 pm

Smudge wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:25 pm
Out of order? You may think so in your sheltered suburban set but you are certainly not of the contemporary world.
The kind of high jinks I am referring to, definitely still goes on and much closer to home than you think. The fact that the lads
don't broadcast it may be fooling you but I can assure you it does happen and is widespread.
Pop singers, Musicians, Actors, MPs, Lords, film stars, TV presenters, company directors, etc frequently engage in the most lurid behaviour "off stage". Yet that does not (in most cases) prevent them from doing what they do to earn a living.
Has Jagger ever lost a gig because of his mars bar party? Has a certain leading surgeon ever missed an operation because he regularly indulges in "roman" orgies" and wife swapping? The list is endless and yet you expect fit, young single sportsmen, who are inundated with willing and eager females to be choir boys?
I say again, if your criterion for recruitment of players is their morality we are doomed as a rugby club.
I've seen and done some strange things but never with the lack of compassion of this particular topic.

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Re: London Irish: an immorality tale?

Post by kend » Thu May 16, 2019 4:22 pm

Smudge wrote:
Thu May 16, 2019 1:25 pm
Out of order? You may think so in your sheltered suburban set but you are certainly not of the contemporary world.
The kind of high jinks I am referring to, definitely still goes on and much closer to home than you think. The fact that the lads
don't broadcast it may be fooling you but I can assure you it does happen and is widespread.
Pop singers, Musicians, Actors, MPs, Lords, film stars, TV presenters, company directors, etc frequently engage in the most lurid behaviour "off stage". Yet that does not (in most cases) prevent them from doing what they do to earn a living.
Has Jagger ever lost a gig because of his mars bar party? Has a certain leading surgeon ever missed an operation because he regularly indulges in "roman" orgies" and wife swapping? The list is endless and yet you expect fit, young single sportsmen, who are inundated with willing and eager females to be choir boys?
I say again, if your criterion for recruitment of players is their morality we are doomed as a rugby club.
Suburban set? How very dare you. I'll have you know I'm a fully paid up member of the 'metropolitan liberal elite'. I have the badge and everything.

I think you miss the point. The surgeon is engaging in (presumably) consensual activity that causes no harm to equally engaged participants. It is not exploitative. However the details of the Jackson case and the derogatory way the woman was subsequently described are different; you can't say she wasn't harmed. The 'power relationships' involved are completely different. Therefore the ethical judgements and consequences are also different.

Jagger is 75 and rather establishment these days. You might need to update your 'badly behaved rock star' reference. Although the current crop are more likely to engage in local planning disputes than throw furniture out of windows. The zeitgeist has moved on there as well....

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