All Coaches except Boris must go now..

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trendylfj
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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by trendylfj » Thu May 02, 2019 11:39 am

Nothing has changed for me in the last 18 months.

DOR Geordan Murphy - he has the ability to sell his vision and recruit players to the club - he has made very few if any mistakes in who has signed for him. Note what several of our next year's signings have said, just don't think he is a great coach.

Head Coach - Milton Haig or Mike Ford. Both are fine with me - Milton has proved he can get great results with Georgia and I believe that Mike is looking to get back to day to day coaching. Spoke to him some time ago about USA and he said it was meeting after meeting. Did not seem happy with that. If we could get both, with Mike doing defence where he has had great success both with England and the Lions

Scrum Coach No contest- has to be Boris

Forwards Coach Geoff Parling or Paul O'Connell would do fine for me - both lineout specialists

Backs Coach - Mike Catt would do for me

Academy Coach - Anthony Allen
Hehehehehehehehe

kend
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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by kend » Thu May 02, 2019 11:50 am

Traveller wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:46 am
1989Tiger wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:13 am
Dangerous4 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:36 am


Extremely able people WLL be out there, but for you to ask for names, is utter nonsense, imo.

You are either in favour of our BOD, or you are just being plain daft, with your petit and puerile posts. Still, I suppose some people can't help themselves, or lack the ability to post constructively.
I don't know who is available either and as you don't, I don't think you should be demanding change. You're just presuming there's better people available.
No it's not. Competent businesses change the composition of their BOD's regularly. It is one of the things that makes them competent. This BOD has failed. That's not my opinion. Look at the facts. If it hasn't failed then what would failure look like? Tesco's, Shell, P&G do not judge their BOD on the basis of company results in 2012. They make judgements on here, now and future.

I had a drink last night with a friend who is as well connected in premiership circles at the top level as one can be (he always admired Tigers). His view is that Tigers are now regarded as being a dysfunctional club by the other premiership clubs. He takes no pleasure in saying so. He gave me a specific example. It was embarrassing.
I don't think you will find many arguing against dysfunction at board level!

However the question is would changing the coaching team at this point make it less dysfunctional? Actually a decision to stick with Murphy and bring in whatever 'support' he needs is (imho) sound. The recruitment for next season is done, the direction of travel is set and won't be changed in a season. Bringing in a new 'big beast' coach/DoR is no absolute guarantee of success. Look at Jones at the Reds, or White at the Sharks. Give Murphy the support he needs and a pre-season. If it's wrong, change it in a controlled way, otherwise you destabilise the club even further.

Also, if it were a straight forward coaching issue, Ford would have found the way to make the 4% difference to get us safe.

The externalities that would change the situation are relegation (obviously) and the outcome of the investigation into Sarries. Because if the Prem find no issue with the structures Wray has implemented others will pile in to the same space and I doubt Tigers currently have the resource to do the same. So either you become a mid-table funded club and plan accordingly, or change the structures completely to find the funding and entrepreneurial flair to follow suit.

Incidentally, if your friend is involved with Sarries, he should be careful about describing other clubs as dysfunctional. Because if premier rugby find they are using the business structures to break the cap (and can back it up legally), all hell will break loose there!

CrumblingTerrace
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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by CrumblingTerrace » Thu May 02, 2019 12:54 pm

I see lots of people are supporting Geordan in his role for a couple of reasons: (1) He should be given time, and/or; (2) We need stability more than we need another sacking.

The question is...

How much time is sufficient for Geordan?

If we're in this same position 5 rounds into next season, is that enough time? Or is it the end of next season? Maybe 3 years' time?

Traveller
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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by Traveller » Thu May 02, 2019 1:55 pm

kend wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:50 am
Traveller wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:46 am
1989Tiger wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:13 am


I don't know who is available either and as you don't, I don't think you should be demanding change. You're just presuming there's better people available.
No it's not. Competent businesses change the composition of their BOD's regularly. It is one of the things that makes them competent. This BOD has failed. That's not my opinion. Look at the facts. If it hasn't failed then what would failure look like? Tesco's, Shell, P&G do not judge their BOD on the basis of company results in 2012. They make judgements on here, now and future.

I had a drink last night with a friend who is as well connected in premiership circles at the top level as one can be (he always admired Tigers). His view is that Tigers are now regarded as being a dysfunctional club by the other premiership clubs. He takes no pleasure in saying so. He gave me a specific example. It was embarrassing.
I don't think you will find many arguing against dysfunction at board level!

However the question is would changing the coaching team at this point make it less dysfunctional? Actually a decision to stick with Murphy and bring in whatever 'support' he needs is (imho) sound. The recruitment for next season is done, the direction of travel is set and won't be changed in a season. Bringing in a new 'big beast' coach/DoR is no absolute guarantee of success. Look at Jones at the Reds, or White at the Sharks. Give Murphy the support he needs and a pre-season. If it's wrong, change it in a controlled way, otherwise you destabilise the club even further.

Also, if it were a straight forward coaching issue, Ford would have found the way to make the 4% difference to get us safe.

The externalities that would change the situation are relegation (obviously) and the outcome of the investigation into Sarries. Because if the Prem find no issue with the structures Wray has implemented others will pile in to the same space and I doubt Tigers currently have the resource to do the same. So either you become a mid-table funded club and plan accordingly, or change the structures completely to find the funding and entrepreneurial flair to follow suit.

Incidentally, if your friend is involved with Sarries, he should be careful about describing other clubs as dysfunctional. Because if premier rugby find they are using the business structures to break the cap (and can back it up legally), all hell will break loose there!
'Incidentally if your friend is involved with Sarries'?

What a daft thing to write. What did I write to suggest that my friend is even vaguely associated with Sarries? As if I wouldn't know they are a club under investigation for cap abuses.

My friend is in a position to take a view and hear what other clubs are saying because of his overall role in the sport. He is not associated with any particular club.

So please, if in future you respond to one of my contributions, don't make assumptions. Respond to what is there. If the BOD haven't failed - please tell me what failure looks like.

kend
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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by kend » Thu May 02, 2019 2:30 pm

CrumblingTerrace wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:54 pm
I see lots of people are supporting Geordan in his role for a couple of reasons: (1) He should be given time, and/or; (2) We need stability more than we need another sacking.

The question is...

How much time is sufficient for Geordan?

If we're in this same position 5 rounds into next season, is that enough time? Or is it the end of next season? Maybe 3 years' time?
It depends.

Make the assumption that Murphy has presented some sort of vision/plan to the board or whoever it is he reports to now and a 'road map' of how we get there. Plus an investment plan (additional coaching, S&C support, different players as contracts expire etc). Presume the plan has milestones and objectives (win/loss ratio, league position, playing style and so on) and the board have agreed on a realistic timescale for delivery.

If he hits whatever the board have agreed (that could well be different to supporters expectations) then he stays. Given the turmoil of past seasons, it might well take Tigers 3 seasons to get back to contention for top four. So it could be that next season is all about putting some performances together, showing promise and building the academy up. Merely avoiding a relegation fight might be sufficient. Might be mediocre, but anything would be better than the stress of the next two games.

Of course he might have had a bunch of unrealistic expectations pushed on him and nothing but a 70% plus win ratio will do. Plus winning the Challenge Cup. In which case he will be out by Christmas and we will be in the same sticky stuff.........

kend
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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by kend » Thu May 02, 2019 2:40 pm

Traveller wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:55 pm
kend wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:50 am
Traveller wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:46 am

No it's not. Competent businesses change the composition of their BOD's regularly. It is one of the things that makes them competent. This BOD has failed. That's not my opinion. Look at the facts. If it hasn't failed then what would failure look like? Tesco's, Shell, P&G do not judge their BOD on the basis of company results in 2012. They make judgements on here, now and future.

I had a drink last night with a friend who is as well connected in premiership circles at the top level as one can be (he always admired Tigers). His view is that Tigers are now regarded as being a dysfunctional club by the other premiership clubs. He takes no pleasure in saying so. He gave me a specific example. It was embarrassing.
I don't think you will find many arguing against dysfunction at board level!

However the question is would changing the coaching team at this point make it less dysfunctional? Actually a decision to stick with Murphy and bring in whatever 'support' he needs is (imho) sound. The recruitment for next season is done, the direction of travel is set and won't be changed in a season. Bringing in a new 'big beast' coach/DoR is no absolute guarantee of success. Look at Jones at the Reds, or White at the Sharks. Give Murphy the support he needs and a pre-season. If it's wrong, change it in a controlled way, otherwise you destabilise the club even further.

Also, if it were a straight forward coaching issue, Ford would have found the way to make the 4% difference to get us safe.

The externalities that would change the situation are relegation (obviously) and the outcome of the investigation into Sarries. Because if the Prem find no issue with the structures Wray has implemented others will pile in to the same space and I doubt Tigers currently have the resource to do the same. So either you become a mid-table funded club and plan accordingly, or change the structures completely to find the funding and entrepreneurial flair to follow suit.

Incidentally, if your friend is involved with Sarries, he should be careful about describing other clubs as dysfunctional. Because if premier rugby find they are using the business structures to break the cap (and can back it up legally), all hell will break loose there!
'Incidentally if your friend is involved with Sarries'?

What a daft thing to write. What did I write to suggest that my friend is even vaguely associated with Sarries? As if I wouldn't know they are a club under investigation for cap abuses.

My friend is in a position to take a view and hear what other clubs are saying because of his overall role in the sport. He is not associated with any particular club.

So please, if in future you respond to one of my contributions, don't make assumptions. Respond to what is there. If the BOD haven't failed - please tell me what failure looks like.
Didn't mean to cause offence.

I entirely agree the BoD have failed, didn't say they hadn't. Not fit for purpose. But unlikely to change any time soon? The point I was making was really whether changing coaches will improve the situation or make it more dysfunctional.

1989Tiger
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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by 1989Tiger » Thu May 02, 2019 5:45 pm

Traveller wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:46 am
1989Tiger wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:13 am
Dangerous4 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:36 am


Extremely able people WLL be out there, but for you to ask for names, is utter nonsense, imo.

You are either in favour of our BOD, or you are just being plain daft, with your petit and puerile posts. Still, I suppose some people can't help themselves, or lack the ability to post constructively.
I don't know who is available either and as you don't, I don't think you should be demanding change. You're just presuming there's better people available.
No it's not. Competent businesses change the composition of their BOD's regularly. It is one of the things that makes them competent. This BOD has failed. That's not my opinion. Look at the facts. If it hasn't failed then what would failure look like? Tesco's, Shell, P&G do not judge their BOD on the basis of company results in 2012. They make judgements on here, now and future.

I had a drink last night with a friend who is as well connected in premiership circles at the top level as one can be (he always admired Tigers). His view is that Tigers are now regarded as being a dysfunctional club by the other premiership clubs. He takes no pleasure in saying so. He gave me a specific example. It was embarrassing.
What was the example?

tigerssteve
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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by tigerssteve » Thu May 02, 2019 10:36 pm

kend wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 11:50 am
Traveller wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 10:46 am
1989Tiger wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 8:13 am


I don't know who is available either and as you don't, I don't think you should be demanding change. You're just presuming there's better people available.
No it's not. Competent businesses change the composition of their BOD's regularly. It is one of the things that makes them competent. This BOD has failed. That's not my opinion. Look at the facts. If it hasn't failed then what would failure look like? Tesco's, Shell, P&G do not judge their BOD on the basis of company results in 2012. They make judgements on here, now and future.

I had a drink last night with a friend who is as well connected in premiership circles at the top level as one can be (he always admired Tigers). His view is that Tigers are now regarded as being a dysfunctional club by the other premiership clubs. He takes no pleasure in saying so. He gave me a specific example. It was embarrassing.
I don't think you will find many arguing against dysfunction at board level!

However the question is would changing the coaching team at this point make it less dysfunctional? Actually a decision to stick with Murphy and bring in whatever 'support' he needs is (imho) sound. The recruitment for next season is done, the direction of travel is set and won't be changed in a season. Bringing in a new 'big beast' coach/DoR is no absolute guarantee of success. Look at Jones at the Reds, or White at the Sharks. Give Murphy the support he needs and a pre-season. If it's wrong, change it in a controlled way, otherwise you destabilise the club even further.

Also, if it were a straight forward coaching issue, Ford would have found the way to make the 4% difference to get us safe.

The externalities that would change the situation are relegation (obviously) and the outcome of the investigation into Sarries. Because if the Prem find no issue with the structures Wray has implemented others will pile in to the same space and I doubt Tigers currently have the resource to do the same. So either you become a mid-table funded club and plan accordingly, or change the structures completely to find the funding and entrepreneurial flair to follow suit.

Incidentally, if your friend is involved with Sarries, he should be careful about describing other clubs as dysfunctional. Because if premier rugby find they are using the business structures to break the cap (and can back it up legally), all hell will break loose there!


Does anyone else find it amazing how many people on these forums have "friends" who are in a position to confirm their own ideas or suspicions? As well connected at the top of premiership rugby as is possible! Dave down the pub agrees. Garbage!

Traveller
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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by Traveller » Fri May 03, 2019 10:33 am

My comment wasn't 'garbage' - I'm too old to need to massage my ego on a forum by making exaggerated claims about imaginary friends - but I do accept that people do exaggerate, and on the basis that I'm not able / prepared to identify my friend you might reasonably assume I'm talking garbage.

However, either I'm lying through my teeth or I'm telling the truth. If you can bring yourself just for one moment to take what I wrote at face value, what does it say about Tigers as a club?

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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by jgriffin » Fri May 03, 2019 10:40 am

Traveller wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 10:33 am
My comment wasn't 'garbage' - I'm too old to need to massage my ego on a forum by making exaggerated claims about imaginary friends - but I do accept that people do exaggerate, and on the basis that I'm not able / prepared to identify my friend you might reasonably assume I'm talking garbage.

However, either I'm lying through my teeth or I'm telling the truth. If you can bring yourself just for one moment to take what I wrote at face value, what does it say about Tigers as a club?
Which is why I comment mostly on the 2012-15 period when things went badly pear-shaped - I had a direct players line into the club, but tried not to identify simply because a couple of the major critics are still in positions in the club and could be identified. When the conduit left for the Antipodes, I ceased to have detailed info. My already standing criticism of MOC at that time was cemented by what I learnt then, hence my horror on his recall. so I'm very sympathetic about protecting real sources.
Given that Oz has said worse at times still doesn't mitigate exposing current staff.
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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by tigerssteve » Fri May 03, 2019 9:32 pm

Traveller wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 10:33 am
My comment wasn't 'garbage' - I'm too old to need to massage my ego on a forum by making exaggerated claims about imaginary friends - but I do accept that people do exaggerate, and on the basis that I'm not able / prepared to identify my friend you might reasonably assume I'm talking garbage.

However, either I'm lying through my teeth or I'm telling the truth. If you can bring yourself just for one moment to take what I wrote at face value, what does it say about Tigers as a club?
But why hint at internal knowledge, not just of Tigers but at the top level of premiership rugby, saying you have specific information but refuse to divulge it? Frankly it makes the whole post pointless. Put up or shut up as a concept is a good one.

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Re: All Coaches except Boris must go now..

Post by tigerssteve » Fri May 03, 2019 9:34 pm

tigerssteve wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 9:32 pm
Traveller wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 10:33 am
My comment wasn't 'garbage' - I'm too old to need to massage my ego on a forum by making exaggerated claims about imaginary friends - but I do accept that people do exaggerate, and on the basis that I'm not able / prepared to identify my friend you might reasonably assume I'm talking garbage.

However, either I'm lying through my teeth or I'm telling the truth. If you can bring yourself just for one moment to take what I wrote at face value, what does it say about Tigers as a club?
But why hint at internal knowledge, not just of Tigers but at the top level of premiership rugby, saying you have specific information but refuse to divulge it? Frankly it makes the whole post pointless. Put up or shut up as a concept is a good one.
PS. I have no argument whatsoever with the dysfunctional tag, just the way it was argued.

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