Ring fencing

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ellis9
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by ellis9 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:34 pm

ourla wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:27 pm
ellis9 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:03 pm
Well teams can already get access to the Premiership based on performance as if they perform well enough, they will win the league so therefore gain promotion.
Sure, at the moment this is the only criteria.
ellis9 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:03 pm
Infrastructure is a poor excuse not to promote a club in my opinion.
And you are entitled to your opinion. However, just to flesh this out. To me the point of ring fencing is to create a stable and competitive league that provides a long term robust framework for the professional game. To that end I want clubs to have up to grade training facilities, match day facilities, sufficient trained staff, etc. to match up with the existing clubs.
ellis9 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:03 pm
However, as this is a rule, clubs can share football grounds so this won't be an issue if they win the Championship.
I'd want to see security of tenure.
ellis9 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:03 pm
Finances. This just needs to be managed correctly.
And that is what I would propose, some due dilligence checks to make sure that is the case.
ellis9 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:03 pm
If the promoted club can only afford £2 million to be spent on wages, then that's what they should spend. If that means they don't have the quality players to stay up, then they'll go back down but they deserved their shot in the big time.
In the meantime another better financed team loses out and the competition suffers. Ring fencing could avoid this situation.
In regards to your first answer where you say it's the only criteria. Well yes, that's why you have leagues. If you win it, you win promotion. Very simple.

Is there due diligence done on exsisting Premiership Clubs? The promoted club should be treated but the same way as current Premiership Clubs. The board at the club should know how to run it sensibly. It doesn't need Premiership Rugby or anyone else telling them. If they want to secure their future, they'd spend the money wisely. This can still be done without ring fencing.

In regards to facilities- Other clubs have shared grounds so why would this be an issue?

There's too many excuses trying to be found in favour of ring fencing.

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Re: Ring fencing

Post by Dangerous4 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:29 pm

Ring fencing would destroy the excitement of clubs battling it out to avoid relegation. We are experiencing that same feeling now, although it isn't nice.

ourla
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by ourla » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:33 pm

ellis9 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:31 pm
Is there due diligence done on exsisting Premiership Clubs? The promoted club should be treated but the same way as current Premiership Clubs.

In regards to facilities- Other clubs have shared grounds so why would this be an issue?
I have no idea what due dilligence is currently done or what the tenancy arrangements are... I am talking about my view on any future ring fencing. And yes of course any criteria for expansion equally applies to any existing teams.
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by ourla » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:47 pm

ellis9 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:34 pm
There's too many excuses trying to be found in favour of ring fencing.
I think you need to start with a question of whether the current Premiership model works or perhaps more pertinently whether it can be improved upon. Most clubs are not profitable. For every Exeter there is a London Welsh. You have the likes of Falcons, Irish and Worcester yo-yoing between the Prem and Champ, creating instability and a difficulty in long term planning and funding. You've had Wasps very nearly go out of business and then shifting 80 miles to a different part of the country.

There are a lot of people who have fond - though perhaps misty eyed - memories of rugby from 10/20/30/40 years ago and which to travel back in time. Clearly that is largely not possible and I'd argue not desirable. You always have to go forward.

I am not a spokesman for letsringfencetheprem.org. The question was merely asked would you introduce ring fencing to save Tigers from relegation. The answer is no, I would introduce ring fencing regardless.
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ellis9
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by ellis9 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:25 pm

ourla wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:47 pm
ellis9 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:34 pm
There's too many excuses trying to be found in favour of ring fencing.
I think you need to start with a question of whether the current Premiership model works or perhaps more pertinently whether it can be improved upon. Most clubs are not profitable. For every Exeter there is a London Welsh. You have the likes of Falcons, Irish and Worcester yo-yoing between the Prem and Champ, creating instability and a difficulty in long term planning and funding. You've had Wasps very nearly go out of business and then shifting 80 miles to a different part of the country.

There are a lot of people who have fond - though perhaps misty eyed - memories of rugby from 10/20/30/40 years ago and which to travel back in time. Clearly that is largely not possible and I'd argue not desirable. You always have to go forward.

I am not a spokesman for letsringfencetheprem.org. The question was merely asked would you introduce ring fencing to save Tigers from relegation. The answer is no, I would introduce ring fencing regardless.
London Welsh have got no one but themselves to blame. Their board didn't spend money wisely. It's no ones fault but their own. Other clubs shouldn't be punished because of their naivety and stupidity.

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Re: Ring fencing

Post by Mark62 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:39 pm

ourla wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:47 pm
ellis9 wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:34 pm
There's too many excuses trying to be found in favour of ring fencing.
I think you need to start with a question of whether the current Premiership model works or perhaps more pertinently whether it can be improved upon. Most clubs are not profitable. For every Exeter there is a London Welsh. You have the likes of Falcons, Irish and Worcester yo-yoing between the Prem and Champ, creating instability and a difficulty in long term planning and funding. You've had Wasps very nearly go out of business and then shifting 80 miles to a different part of the country.

There are a lot of people who have fond - though perhaps misty eyed - memories of rugby from 10/20/30/40 years ago and which to travel back in time. Clearly that is largely not possible and I'd argue not desirable. You always have to go forward.

I am not a spokesman for letsringfencetheprem.org. The question was merely asked would you introduce ring fencing to save Tigers from relegation. The answer is no, I would introduce ring fencing regardless.
Professional rugby/ semi professional rugby doesn’t work under the current format period.
It is simply not sustainable and imho there are only 2 answers for the game to get back on an even keel.
Ring fencing for all leagues down to and including the premier league in each division, I.e Midland Premier for a period of 3 years.
This would give all clubs a chance to consolidate both financially and on the playing side and find a suitable level for their resources.
Clubs are already having to stop playing senior rugby at lower levels, and re enter the league structure at the very bottom. The number of sides that lower league clubs can put out is reducing, and at the higher levels, but for the input of some wealthy individuals, who can afford to absorb losses, we would have lost more than 1 premiership club by now.
Secondly central union contracts for elite players, which would remove these costs from the clubs, and allow them to invest in younger more local players, which would hopefully have a positive impact on younger clubs in their area.

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Re: Ring fencing

Post by strawclearer » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:56 pm

I would not introduce 'ring-fencing'.

I would have the bottom club from the Premiership in a play-off with the top club from the Championship.

That's it.
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by Dangerous4 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:21 pm

strawclearer wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:56 pm
I would not introduce 'ring-fencing'.

I would have the bottom club from the Premiership in a play-off with the top club from the Championship.

That's it.


I quite like that idea. Home and away, or a one off at Twickenham.

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Re: Ring fencing

Post by BFG » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:24 am

Ring fencing can't be allowed to happen.
No relegation won't make the game better, England don't have the threat of relegation in the six nations but still play a style of rugby that is dictated by a fear of losing and make selections as such, players like Cipriani are not picked because they so talented that they are misinterpreted as unreliable and pushed away, and instead lesser players are selected who are viewed as safer options, in truth they are the boring options.
The only advantage of no relegation is financial security for those who are at risk of being relegated but if the salary cap was strictly policed in the first place and didn't keep rising like clubs had money to burn then clubs would have more financial security to cope.
Anyway I suspect many viewers would leave were ring fencing to happen and so there is an even bigger risk to all in that.

ourla
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by ourla » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:51 pm

BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:24 am
No relegation won't make the game better, England don't have the threat of relegation in the six nations but still play a style of rugby that is dictated by a fear of losing and make selections as such, players like Cipriani are not picked because they so talented that they are misinterpreted as unreliable and pushed away, and instead lesser players are selected who are viewed as safer options, in truth they are the boring options.
Lot's of contradictions in that. #1 If there is no relegation in 6N why is their a fear of losing and why wouldn't that translate to a ring fenced Prem? #2 England were the most exciting team in the competition and scored 184 points versus 114 by Wales who were next best.
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:24 am
The only advantage of no relegation is financial security for those who are at risk of being relegated
Well, that is certainly the biggy. Out of interest why don't you see that is important given that several clubs, if not all, have the threat of relegation - Quins, Saints, Falcons, Worcester, Bristol have all been there.
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:24 am
but if the salary cap was strictly policed in the first place
There has only been two breaches confirmed, most clubs are spending up to the cap... I don't really get how this is a contributory factor.
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ourla
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by ourla » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:52 pm

Cohen suggested a 10-team Prem*, completely avoiding overlap with internationals so the best players can play all the time and a shortening of the international game calendar.

* Presummably with promotion/relegation and a boost to Championship rugby.
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by BFG » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:04 pm

ourla wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:51 pm
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:24 am
No relegation won't make the game better, England don't have the threat of relegation in the six nations but still play a style of rugby that is dictated by a fear of losing and make selections as such, players like Cipriani are not picked because they so talented that they are misinterpreted as unreliable and pushed away, and instead lesser players are selected who are viewed as safer options, in truth they are the boring options.
Lot's of contradictions in that. #1 If there is no relegation in 6N why is their a fear of losing and why wouldn't that translate to a ring fenced Prem? #2 England were the most exciting team in the competition and scored 184 points versus 114 by Wales who were next best.
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:24 am
The only advantage of no relegation is financial security for those who are at risk of being relegated
Well, that is certainly the biggy. Out of interest why don't you see that is important given that several clubs, if not all, have the threat of relegation - Quins, Saints, Falcons, Worcester, Bristol have all been there.
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:24 am
but if the salary cap was strictly policed in the first place
There has only been two breaches confirmed, most clubs are spending up to the cap... I don't really get how this is a contributory factor.
Contradictions in your opinion.
So England put a few points on struggling sides, well done them for making the average look average, when it came to the big matches what happened!
Only two breaches confirmed, and what do they do, raise the salary cap again and again!
If clubs like Bristol are worried about the financial implications of relegation then don't spend 1 million per season on Piutau etc.
If clubs like Sarries are concerned then only spend what they earn.
If they are going to create risk then live with it if it goes wrong, don't alter the game to suit.
It has created a dangerous pressure situation for others to take more financial risks to be competitive.
I have some sympathy for Leicester's current situation because of this, it only wears thin because I think that they have done some bad player deals under the pressure to compete.
If you don't get that or disagree then that's fine, no need for further dissection!

ourla
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by ourla » Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:00 am

BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:04 pm
So England put a few points on struggling sides, well done them for making the average look average, when it came to the big matches what happened!
Ireland?
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:04 pm
If you don't get that or disagree then that's fine, no need for further dissection!
So you are shutting down the debate? Why do you post?
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BFG
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by BFG » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:52 am

ourla wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:00 am
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:04 pm
So England put a few points on struggling sides, well done them for making the average look average, when it came to the big matches what happened!
Ireland?
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:04 pm
If you don't get that or disagree then that's fine, no need for further dissection!
So you are shutting down the debate? Why do you post?
I'm shutting down any debate with you as your dissection of posts is a repetitive bore to me.

ourla
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Re: Ring fencing

Post by ourla » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:29 am

BFG wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:52 am
ourla wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:00 am
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:04 pm
So England put a few points on struggling sides, well done them for making the average look average, when it came to the big matches what happened!
Ireland?
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:04 pm
If you don't get that or disagree then that's fine, no need for further dissection!
So you are shutting down the debate? Why do you post?
I'm shutting down any debate with you as your dissection of posts is a repetitive bore to me.
Ha ha. Excellent. In that case please don't respond to my posts forthwith and I will do likewise.
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