next manager

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Coleshillad
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Re: next manager

Post by Coleshillad » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:01 am

Cardiff Tig wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:04 am
Smudge wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:12 am
Bring back Cockers? Are you mad? It was him that started the slide. He was way out of his depth as HC/DOR.
If he was out of his depth than how did he manage to lead Tigers to Champions in 2013? I can understand the argument that the 09-10 season was more down to inheriting the squad etc, but to win the league that long after being appointed shows he wasn't out of his depth.

The academy/scouting network was massively weakened after Dusty Hare left, you'll notice that now Dusty has returned we seem to be producing youngsters again.

RC made an instant impact at Toulon. He made an instant impact at Edinburgh. He didn't need time away from the game or to take a lesser role to rebuild his reputation etc. It's pretty clear he was getting more out the players than 3 subsequent coaches ever could/can. To me, it's obvious that the whole structure of the rugby side of the club needs an overhaul.

I still don't think RC should return though. Returing coaches never do well
Spot on. Well said.

johnthegriff
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Re: next manager

Post by johnthegriff » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:45 am

Cocker inherited a squad that was lying eighth in the Premiership and looked to be out of Europe, he had an immediate impact and we actually made the Heineken Cup Final with our injury hit squad although losing after further on pitch injuries. We also won the Premiership. Over the next few years under Cocker we never finished out of a Premiership semi-final place winning three Premiership titles and losing a few finals. We also won the LV Anglo Welsh when it was a proper competition. We had a few European quarter finals and lost a sem-final in Nottingham. Not a bad record for someone "out of his depth". The latter years were handicapped by appalling injuries to our mid-field where not only the first choices were unavailable but also the second, third, and fourth choices. Paul Birke MOC's successor got the sack but he had been forced to field about fourteen different combinations at fly-half and centre so inevitably the team suffered. The loss of George Ford (no ones fault) and Toby Floods injuries did not help us and the recruitment of Arron Mauger which to be honest I thought was a good idea did not work and ultimately cost both him and Cocker their jobs. Many say Cocker did not give young players a chance, that in my opinion is not true, those that were good enough to replace the guys in front of them came through, Dan Coles, Ben and Tom Youngs, George Ford (actually played in three finals before leaving) Manu Tuilagi, Tom Croft, Billy Twelvetrees and quite a few others got regular game time whilst still young players. Obviously some failed to replace the international quality ahead of them in the pecking order.
Cocker's record was deemed not good enough, I would ask have things got better since his departure? I have no knowledge of any restrictions on recruitment faced by Cocker or whether or not he had full support. I do believe that some players thought he trained them too hard and eighteen months after his departure the then Head coach said we were not fit enough at the start of this season.
I am not advocating the return of Richard at this stage, we have chosen our current head coach, recruitment is taking place, I believe six or eight players are in coming to improve our squad, obviously we have to remain in the Premiership, have a decent pre-season and get off to a good start next September and be even better when the World Cup players return. If this does not happen then the next AGM will be very interesting indeed.

kend
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Re: next manager

Post by kend » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:29 am

johnthegriff wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:45 am
Cocker inherited a squad that was lying eighth in the Premiership and looked to be out of Europe, he had an immediate impact and we actually made the Heineken Cup Final with our injury hit squad although losing after further on pitch injuries. We also won the Premiership. Over the next few years under Cocker we never finished out of a Premiership semi-final place winning three Premiership titles and losing a few finals. We also won the LV Anglo Welsh when it was a proper competition. We had a few European quarter finals and lost a sem-final in Nottingham. Not a bad record for someone "out of his depth". The latter years were handicapped by appalling injuries to our mid-field where not only the first choices were unavailable but also the second, third, and fourth choices. Paul Birke MOC's successor got the sack but he had been forced to field about fourteen different combinations at fly-half and centre so inevitably the team suffered. The loss of George Ford (no ones fault) and Toby Floods injuries did not help us and the recruitment of Arron Mauger which to be honest I thought was a good idea did not work and ultimately cost both him and Cocker their jobs. Many say Cocker did not give young players a chance, that in my opinion is not true, those that were good enough to replace the guys in front of them came through, Dan Coles, Ben and Tom Youngs, George Ford (actually played in three finals before leaving) Manu Tuilagi, Tom Croft, Billy Twelvetrees and quite a few others got regular game time whilst still young players. Obviously some failed to replace the international quality ahead of them in the pecking order.
Cocker's record was deemed not good enough, I would ask have things got better since his departure? I have no knowledge of any restrictions on recruitment faced by Cocker or whether or not he had full support. I do believe that some players thought he trained them too hard and eighteen months after his departure the then Head coach said we were not fit enough at the start of this season.
I am not advocating the return of Richard at this stage, we have chosen our current head coach, recruitment is taking place, I believe six or eight players are in coming to improve our squad, obviously we have to remain in the Premiership, have a decent pre-season and get off to a good start next September and be even better when the World Cup players return. If this does not happen then the next AGM will be very interesting indeed.
Well said. I could understand the adverse comments if Cockerill had crashed and burnt in the next stages of his career. But given his turnaround performances at Toulon and Edinburgh, the data rather points in the opposite direction. I doubt he would return (doesn't he have a long term contract at Edinburgh?). If his success continues, I guess a national role is his next step. The thing that irks me is how sanguine the board appear to be about their decision making. Given how successful Cockerill has been subsequently, even the most blinkered of management teams should be questioning 'did we get that right'? And, for that matter 'Did we get the succession planning right'? They do seem to evaluated themselves and found they are in no way to blame.

But it is what it is and we are where we are. Murphy should get as much support as the organisation can give (money, team psychologists, magicians) to avoid a disaster. Surviving by one point would do.....

voice of the crumbie
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Re: next manager

Post by voice of the crumbie » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:55 am

Good analysis johnthegriff.

The rot started when we tried the experiment of trying to marry the old Tigers approach with the style of play favoured by Aaron Mauger. When this didn't work the error was further compounded by getting rid of the wrong man i.e. Cockers and then further compounded by bringing in MOC whose track record at Leinster should have shown us that he is ok as a 2nd in command but should be nowhere near the top job. Just how out of his depth he was is clearly illustrated by the way the team folded in the last 2 games of last season at home v Saints and Newcastle and the under-prepared state the squad was in for the 1st game of this season.

GM has inherited a squad lacking confidence and mentally fragile. The pattern seems to be that something goes against us (eg the blatant knock on prior to Saint's first try on Friday) and we fall apart. We miss obvious opportunities in attack and defence. We often lack patience in attack and try to force the issue or choose the wrong option. Some players are trying hard (Thompson, Harrison, Genge, Tom Youngs, Cole, George Ford) maybe too hard. Others are off the pace or making silly errors (Williams, BOC, Kitchener, Fitzgerald). We then start trying when it's too late in the game and come up short.

How do we fix it? I'm not entirely sure but we need to find some confidence and spirit from somewhere.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

Cardiff Tig
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Re: next manager

Post by Cardiff Tig » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:32 pm

In my opinion, RC's weakness was his loyalty to the coaches beneath him. Paul Burke should never have been appointed backs coach (I'm not sure he should ever have been made kicking coach to be honest!) and Aaron Mauger clearly never worked out. How much of that was down to RC though and how much was due to having his hands tied by above I doubt we'll ever know. RC doesn't seem the type to do a tell-all autobiography!!

wellstiger
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Re: next manager

Post by wellstiger » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:56 pm

Whats E Jones doing after W.Cup.?
Whats going on with S Edwards.?
Both, either and or.
Keep D Hare and B Stanco.

If D trump isn't impeached, BOD anybody?????? :smt005 :smt005 :smt005

BFG
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Re: next manager

Post by BFG » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:59 pm

johnthegriff wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:45 am
Cocker inherited a squad that was lying eighth in the Premiership and looked to be out of Europe, he had an immediate impact and we actually made the Heineken Cup Final with our injury hit squad although losing after further on pitch injuries. We also won the Premiership. Over the next few years under Cocker we never finished out of a Premiership semi-final place winning three Premiership titles and losing a few finals. We also won the LV Anglo Welsh when it was a proper competition. We had a few European quarter finals and lost a sem-final in Nottingham. Not a bad record for someone "out of his depth". The latter years were handicapped by appalling injuries to our mid-field where not only the first choices were unavailable but also the second, third, and fourth choices. Paul Birke MOC's successor got the sack but he had been forced to field about fourteen different combinations at fly-half and centre so inevitably the team suffered. The loss of George Ford (no ones fault) and Toby Floods injuries did not help us and the recruitment of Arron Mauger which to be honest I thought was a good idea did not work and ultimately cost both him and Cocker their jobs. Many say Cocker did not give young players a chance, that in my opinion is not true, those that were good enough to replace the guys in front of them came through, Dan Coles, Ben and Tom Youngs, George Ford (actually played in three finals before leaving) Manu Tuilagi, Tom Croft, Billy Twelvetrees and quite a few others got regular game time whilst still young players. Obviously some failed to replace the international quality ahead of them in the pecking order.
Cocker's record was deemed not good enough, I would ask have things got better since his departure? I have no knowledge of any restrictions on recruitment faced by Cocker or whether or not he had full support. I do believe that some players thought he trained them too hard and eighteen months after his departure the then Head coach said we were not fit enough at the start of this season.
I am not advocating the return of Richard at this stage, we have chosen our current head coach, recruitment is taking place, I believe six or eight players are in coming to improve our squad, obviously we have to remain in the Premiership, have a decent pre-season and get off to a good start next September and be even better when the World Cup players return. If this does not happen then the next AGM will be very interesting indeed.
Two points really.

First I view Ford's departure to Bath as one wave in the momentum that ultimately cost RC his job here, probably why I struggle to warm to Ford and wish we'd kept Burns and spent the money elsewhere, which also would've meant we weren't interested in his mate May who couldn't do anything without the ball on Friday, which also means a bit more money to spend elsewhere whilst retaining Slater who was THE player that Gloucester wanted in return, so there is cause and effect here that has not worked out well for Leicester.
Worked out well for Ford though who was bought out to escape Bath and now earns a very good wedge.
Not that he isn't a good player but still he is only one player.

Second point, is there a suggestion that some players don't want to train hard!
Both MOC and Murhpy have eluded to fitness issues.
This is a big revelation and could explain a lot such as matches like Friday night, instead of trying to find excuses for them!

chewbacca
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Re: next manager

Post by chewbacca » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:22 pm

"Both MOC and Murhpy have eluded to fitness issues." Would explain our 'kicking to save energy' strategy.
I'm not cynical just experienced

johnthegriff
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Re: next manager

Post by johnthegriff » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:36 pm

BFG, I think the re-signing of Ford was a good move, shame we couldn't have kept Freddie though. I was thrilled by the signing of May as we had lacked real pace in the backs for years but I agree losing Slater and his leadership and dog in the pack was a mistake, at the time I thought Barrow might prove an adequate younger replacement but for some reasons we fans are not truly aware of that did not work out.

fleabane
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Re: next manager

Post by fleabane » Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:46 pm

Gatland and Edwards free after the WC. Go for the best.
Valhalla I am coming!

Chobbsy
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Re: next manager

Post by Chobbsy » Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:02 pm

Our next manager, DoR, HoR whatever it is to be called, I believe must have no history the club, they need to come in and sort from bottom to top with out any ties or loyalties nor emotions. Plus they must be given a totally free hand
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/

Dangerous4
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Re: next manager

Post by Dangerous4 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:14 pm

Mark62 wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:33 am
And who was responsible for the mess that others have failed to clear up.

I get for some he is the saviour but this downturn happened during his tenure.

I would suggest he has become far wiser and more knowledgeable since he left. Was being in 5th place, a mess? I don't think so.

Yes, bring Cockers back if G.M. goes. :smt023

Carver510
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Re: next manager

Post by Carver510 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:52 pm

Chobbsy wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:02 pm
Our next manager, DoR, HoR whatever it is to be called, I believe must have no history the club, they need to come in and sort from bottom to top with out any ties or loyalties nor emotions. Plus they must be given a totally free hand
Agree.

BFG
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Re: next manager

Post by BFG » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:59 pm

johnthegriff wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:36 pm
BFG, I think the re-signing of Ford was a good move, shame we couldn't have kept Freddie though. I was thrilled by the signing of May as we had lacked real pace in the backs for years but I agree losing Slater and his leadership and dog in the pack was a mistake, at the time I thought Barrow might prove an adequate younger replacement but for some reasons we fans are not truly aware of that did not work out.
Not sure the shirt means everything that it should to be honest and that applies to many.
Last edited by BFG on Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Robespierre
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Re: next manager

Post by Robespierre » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:36 pm

fleabane wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:46 pm
Gatland and Edwards free after the WC. Go for the best.
There are one or two whispers that Gatland may be after the French job after the frogs' early exit from the World Cup.
Semper in excreta

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