Sarries being investigated

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ABClub
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by ABClub » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:19 pm

Grumpy of Crumbie wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:08 pm
The most telling comment by Walkinshaw is that he views breaching the cap in the same category as taking performance enhancing drugs. If that doesn't kick the powers that be into life I doubt anything will.

I'm getting more hopeful that this time it might not go away!
It's a striking comparison but arguably an ironic one given the lingering rumours about rife PED use in all contact sports that gets willfully ignored by many.

mol2
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by mol2 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:09 pm

The problem of enforcement is tricky.
These things may well breach the salary cap rules but are likely to be perfectly legal as far as the Inland revenue is concerned.

Clubs books may well be within the salary cap.

Sponsors may well pay players as individuals either directly or via a limited company for "work"
If it is sufficiently distanced from the club then proving it as a breach of the salary cap would be very difficult.
Here there are rumours that the main club sponsor/owner was also a director of the players limited company which doesn't seem much of a distance to me. If that's the case it suggests that the club have got very sloppy or arrogant.

Why didn't all of the clubs back the investigation/punishment of previous breaches?
The logical interpretation may that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Have the breaches got so vast by some clubs that they can't be overlooked any more?
Have some with minor infringements sorted themselves out and now are in a position to stand up to scrutiny sufficiently to take a firmer line this time.

Many of us think that Tigers' squad is weaker and less deep than in the past. Is that because we lack the cash or because we are simply complying?

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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by mightymouse » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:09 am

I think we probably do keep to the cap by and large and also I do not think we have the money in comparison to these clubs with wealthy owners.
This fiddling of the cap and the unwillingness or inability of the governing body to do anything about it is very reminiscent of the final dying throws of shamerteurism. Is it going to go the same way? ie be thrown out as not working and anachronistic. I think the cap, until recently has worked well. It has taken a fledgling professional sport and put into onto a big stage with decent Re numeration for players in a limited life span of a career, without financially ruining too many clubs at the same time. I think in many ways it will be a sad day that it is removed because I fear for the game and many clubs future however I cannot see how it can be sustainable any longer if the leading club continues to flout the laws unsantioned and thereby continue to benefit in terms of trophies and subsequently financial reward whilst those obeying the laws fall further and further behind. No other businesses are going to put up with an uneven playing field for long. It will be a case of “ punish them, scrap it or we’re all going to cheat too” soon.

The guilty clubs will of course be arguing, with some justification, that how can they compete in Europe without a level playing field? There may even be legal arguments about restraint of trade or whatever it is.

I am not 100% sure of the salary cap rules but I do think that maybe the initial compromise should be that any player brought through your own academy or development programme (let’s say from under 20 or younger) should fall outwith the cap and only “imported players” cost you. This would encourage academy development of young talent, clubs able to reward loyalty and those who rely on nicking other peoples developed players will have to pay the consequences. Also it should in theory encourage development of young English talent ahead of use of foreign imports of often past it pension seekers!

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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by ourla » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:48 am

mol2 wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:09 pm
Why didn't all of the clubs back the investigation/punishment of previous breaches?
Two suggested reasons:
#1 There would have been a protracted legal battle
#2 The reputation of the League would have been compromised hitting everyone
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Smudge
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Smudge » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:06 am

If you are right, and I am not saying you are, it is an even greater reason to apply severe sanctions . As Mightymouse so rightly observes, it is unsustainable in the mid to long term as even the most dedicated fans won't put up with it indefinitely.
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ourla
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by ourla » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:25 am

The League of course needs to decide if whatever Sarries have done or are doing is acceptable to the group or not. And it has to be unanimous. If anyone sides with Sarries it opens it to everybody doing the same with the rules amended to specifically state that.

I think people are making a bigger deal out of it than it is in reality.
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Smudge » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:48 am

Ourla wrote:-
I think people are making a bigger deal out of it than it is in reality.
That was an opinion, (albeit phrased differently), often expressed by some commentators in the 1930s.
It is called appeasement.

The rules were set and agreed by all parties. It is nonsense to suggest that some may now choose not to implement them, for whatever reason, however inconvenient. As for making a big deal out of it? Are you serious? There is more than enough circumstantial evidence to raise concern and the stink that eminates from Sarries permeates through the entire game.

It this is swept under the carpet now, it has the potential to destroy the professional game in England.
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by BFG » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:05 am

Smudge wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:48 am
Ourla wrote:-
I think people are making a bigger deal out of it than it is in reality.
That was an opinion, (albeit phrased differently), often expressed by some commentators in the 1930s.
It is called appeasement.

The rules were set and agreed by all parties. It is nonsense to suggest that some may now choose not to implement them, for whatever reason, however inconvenient. As for making a big deal out of it? Are you serious? There is more than enough circumstantial evidence to raise concern and the stink that eminates from Sarries permeates through the entire game.

It this is swept under the carpet now, it has the potential to destroy the professional game in England.
You're a bit late in my opinion as the games soul has already gone.
Bristol, 1million pa to Piutau, 650k to Luatua, 500k to Hughes.
Sale look to be potentially pursuing a similar course in the future, Bath have been to an extent, where did it start!
One quarter of this weeks England squad are from overseas, foreign coaches telling us what the English way is and a Welsh side that won last time out with more heart.
It's already well on its way!

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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by h's dad » Fri Mar 08, 2019 11:58 am

There is no reason by people connected by sport should not go into business together, for example, 96 Coffee which I hope pays a commercially justifiable rent to Tigers. If these are genuine business ventures, the potential rewards will be proportionate to the investment and risk for each individual. If this is the situation then there is no case to answer. If the arrangements appear to favour the players for no discernible business reason then I do not see any other course than to take any benefits to the players, above that commensurate with their investment, as part of their overall remuneration.

I can’t remember the exact wording or where I heard it but I seem to recall a Saracen’s statement that they were in full compliance with the remuneration aspect of the SCR. It sounded mealy-mouthed and Clintonesque to me.

HMRC have no concern with the SCR and will be happy as long as the appropriate level of tax is paid, whatever the income source. If there is tax evasion (or illegal avoidance, whatever that is) that is of no concern to the SCR. Any conflation here is erroneous and irrelevant.

In terms of the burden of proof, per the SCR as agreed by all clubs, all that counts is the opinion of the Salary Cap Manager and the opinion of the Disciplinary Panel. For those who have not read the SCR, I find the extract below very interesting:

“If, following his investigation, the Salary Cap Manager is of the view that the Club has not provided a satisfactory explanation as to why the relevant terms are materially lower than what the Salary Cap Manager considers to be appropriate commercial terms for that Player, the Salary Cap Manager shall have the right to deem a Salary for that Player based on what he considers appropriate commercial terms and to apply that deemed Salary to the Senior or Academy Ceiling in the relevant Salary Cap Year.”
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Scott1
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Scott1 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:04 pm

Are we dealing with legality or morality here?

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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by loretta » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:41 pm

It seems to me that a key question in all of this is how much did the vunipolas, faz, wigglesworth et al pay for their shares?
All I said was ........

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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by TigerCam » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:40 pm

IMO the only salary cap breach by the Tigers BoD is that it wastes a fair amount of the 7m!!
Last edited by TigerCam on Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by ourla » Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:53 pm

Smudge wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:48 am
The rules were set and agreed by all parties. It is nonsense to suggest that some may now choose not to implement them, for whatever reason, however inconvenient.
There is such a thing as ambiguity. The bottom line is Sarries have 12 mates. If those mates all agree they have stepped out of line it will be dealt with. And the penalty will be financial. I am not asking anyone to ignore the rules. Just that the rules inevitably are open to bending and interpretation.
Smudge wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:48 am
As for making a big deal out of it? Are you serious? There is more than enough circumstantial evidence to raise concern and the stink that eminates from Sarries permeates through the entire game.
It isn't a big deal - see my answer above. In the world of professional sport, you need your top dogs. The boat won't be rocked so much that it can tip over and soak everyone.
Smudge wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:48 am
It this is swept under the carpet now, it has the potential to destroy the professional game in England.
That statement seems to be trotted out on a regular basis in regard of TV deals, CVC investment, the global calendar, Nations Cup, etc., etc. And it hasn't and will not happen.
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Dangerous4 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:59 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:04 pm
Are we dealing with legality or morality here?

A mixture of both, methinks.

Grumpy of Crumbie
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Grumpy of Crumbie » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:16 pm

I find the news emanating from the world of Rugby over the last couple of weeks very depressing. Taking a holistic view whatever happens with the salary cap investigations and the debate over a world nations league the sport looks to be in for significant change, not for the better in my opinion.

I fear that we'll finish up with the worst of cricket where top international players rarely appear for their home club and the worst of football where money rules out the majority in favour of the few (LCFC accepted).

As long as broadcasters and investors see a commercial benefit I'm pretty sure the bandwagon that is starting to roll in these areas will not be stopped.
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