Sarries being investigated

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Cardiff Tig
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Cardiff Tig »

The problem is rugby isn't a sustainable professional sport!
h's dad
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by h's dad »

Honest and open clarification or wriggling like a fish on a hook?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47523241
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Not a jock
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Not a jock »

This is (Nigel) Wray's side of the story:

https://www.saracens.com/news-article/a ... nigel-wray

Didn't Quins have a reputation for doing something similar in the so-called amateur days - lots of City connections?
TigerCam
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by TigerCam »

IMO if the investments etc are as transparent as they say then good luck to them and let the other clubs use the same template? I am all for players, given their short professional 'life-span', making a few bob on the side, nothing wrong with tax avoidance etc within the rules; evasion is another issue?
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voice of the crumbie
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by voice of the crumbie »

Having read Nigel Wray's side of the story (see link below) I find the difference he points to between investments and salary a telling one. It would appear that the money players have put into these investments is from their salaries. If their investment had been covered by additional money from the club then, as I understand the cap regulations, this would be a breach. However, having read the relevant sections in the cap regulations, I can't find anything that says that individuals, even though they are part of the same club by being employees or owners, can't invest together in business using their own funds. According to Wray this is what is happening / has happened.

What is more interesting to me is how Tigers can learn from this. Towards the end of Wray's statement is this telling piece of information:
" Of our current squad, 57 per cent is home-grown talent, the highest in the league, contributing towards the £1.2 million in credits we receive from PRL which, incidentally, makes our salary cap higher than most."

I'm would hope that given the business acumen of key members of our board of directors we are making the most of these credits also and that when the board makes statements like "we spend up to the cap" this does not just mean the £7 million that all clubs can legitimately spend but the additional credits we obtain also.

Read more at https://www.premiershiprugby.com/2018- ... Z7p3ddg.99

This underlines that investment in our academy is not just sound for rugby reasons but makes very good commercial sense also. It makes me wonder whether those clubs that are currently importing large numbers of "galacticos" from South Africa and other countries may not find themselves in a similar position to where Tigers are now a few seasons down the line. They may do better than expected in the short term vis a vis results on the field but where will they be as clubs longer term?
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!
jgriffin
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by jgriffin »

Of course the real issue was a few years ago and what was happening with Johann Rupert's involvement. I have no doubt that, like Arron Banks, the paper trail will be non-existent and the web of investment requiring the services of a top forensic accountant to unravel.
Whatever, they, and others, got away with it. Conor O'Shea knew what the others were doing, and legged it.
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Smudge
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Smudge »

Whatever, they, and others, got away with it. Conor O'Shea knew what the others were doing, and legged it.
Which is why I don't buy the smoke screen being created by Saffacens. Or why I am equally pessimistic about the will and ability to investigate the scam fully.
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Dangerous4
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Dangerous4 »

Smudge wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:19 pm
Whatever, they, and others, got away with it. Conor O'Shea knew what the others were doing, and legged it.
Which is why I don't buy the smoke screen being created by Saffacens. Or why I am equally pessimistic about the will and ability to investigate the scam fully.

I am in full agreement with you, Smudge.
wellstiger
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by wellstiger »

+2 Smudge

So when a statement of no wrong doing is published, we will have a free for all.
Every club will get a green light to a "work around"current rules.

Sounds like something from "West Wing"
Do we then pay for the Worlds best corporate legal teams to find the relevant solutions ?
Where does rugby go from here.?
Ah the halcion days of amateur sport......
jgriffin
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by jgriffin »

wellstiger wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:19 am +2 Smudge

So when a statement of no wrong doing is published, we will have a free for all.
Every club will get a green light to a "work around"current rules.

Sounds like something from "West Wing"
Do we then pay for the Worlds best corporate legal teams to find the relevant solutions ?
Where does rugby go from here.?
Ah the halcion days of amateur sport......
Brown envelopes unless you weren't favoured, then you got banned? No thanks.
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Bunchy
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Bunchy »

The main thing to note with this whole thing is that it is Mr Wray, not Saracens, making the investments with the players.
Therefore, Saracens probably do spend within the cap and are very open with that.
Mr Wray points to some investments that with certain players and are part of the running of the club - again those investments and salaries are openly shared with the cap investigators. These are more junior players generally.

The issue - the real issue - is that they can keep OF, BV, MK, MI in their squad and within the cap only by offering them outside deals, through Mr Wray and Mr Wray alone, guaranteeing those players other incomes that are, effectively, outside of Saracens and rugby infact. These have come from property investments, some from business loans etc etc.

The grey area is that without Mr Wrays investments, these players would have less income - albeit not less in their Saracens paypacket but overall and then would look elsewhere for that killer, marquee deal. For example - OF turned down a £1m deal to go to Sale. he is on £650k at Sarries. His career could be over tomorrow, yet it was turned down without a blink in his eye. Why?
Loyalty? Maybe
Tied to the club and making more over the long term ? Highly likely

So - this practice is very well known. It is talked about widely inside the game. It is joked amongst those in the know that a Saracens deal for a top player will include a property in Harpenden !! Look them up if you want to see why a property here could mean so much.
This also happened in the SA ownership era at Sarries too. It is reported that Schalk Brits was paid £100k per season for his contract............ I wonder how that salary was inflated????

Mr Wray is shrewd - and it is likely that this does not fall foul of the actual rules of the cap and is generally done with his money - whether it falls foul morally is, of course, another matter.

Those asking why Tigers, and others don't do the same is simple. We don't have that sugar daddy who is prepared to spend his or her own money in the way Bruce Craig and Nigel Wray do. It's that simple.
Less is more....
Dangerous4
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by Dangerous4 »

Bunchy wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:47 pm The main thing to note with this whole thing is that it is Mr Wray, not Saracens, making the investments with the players.
Therefore, Saracens probably do spend within the cap and are very open with that.
Mr Wray points to some investments that with certain players and are part of the running of the club - again those investments and salaries are openly shared with the cap investigators. These are more junior players generally.

The issue - the real issue - is that they can keep OF, BV, MK, MI in their squad and within the cap only by offering them outside deals, through Mr Wray and Mr Wray alone, guaranteeing those players other incomes that are, effectively, outside of Saracens and rugby infact. These have come from property investments, some from business loans etc etc.

The grey area is that without Mr Wrays investments, these players would have less income - albeit not less in their Saracens paypacket but overall and then would look elsewhere for that killer, marquee deal. For example - OF turned down a £1m deal to go to Sale. he is on £650k at Sarries. His career could be over tomorrow, yet it was turned down without a blink in his eye. Why?
Loyalty? Maybe
Tied to the club and making more over the long term ? Highly likely

So - this practice is very well known. It is talked about widely inside the game. It is joked amongst those in the know that a Saracens deal for a top player will include a property in Harpenden !! Look them up if you want to see why a property here could mean so much.
This also happened in the SA ownership era at Sarries too. It is reported that Schalk Brits was paid £100k per season for his contract............ I wonder how that salary was inflated????

Mr Wray is shrewd - and it is likely that this does not fall foul of the actual rules of the cap and is generally done with his money - whether it falls foul morally is, of course, another matter.

Those asking why Tigers, and others don't do the same is simple. We don't have that sugar daddy who is prepared to spend his or her own money in the way Bruce Craig and Nigel Wray do. It's that simple.
Sadly I have to agree with you.
johnthegriff
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Re: Sarries being investigated

Post by johnthegriff »

The salary cap was introduced with the intention of making every game competetive, and to prevent one or two extremely wealthy clubs or individuals dominating the Premiership.
Rich people are taking over teams with little in the way of assets, Bath and Saracens are the two worst grounds in the league, I know Bath are going to build a new stadium, they have been going to do it for more than twenty years, and Saracens plan a new stand, they are making the best they can of an unsuitable venue. Sarries are not acting within the spirit of the salary cap, if they are proven to have actually broken it they should suffer a points deduction even if it means relegation, otherwise we can say goodbye to our game as only super rich owners will be able to afford a team and its losses whilst they are interested then when it suits they will just walk.
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