Proof if proof were needed

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Cardiff Tig
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by Cardiff Tig » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:49 pm

We used to have a starting XV and bench packed full of internationals. I very much doubt that Sarries are breaching the cap. Playing for a winning team, with a great work ethic and off-field atmosphere means they can offer less than we could for the same players.

voice of the crumbie
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by voice of the crumbie » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:08 pm

trendylfj wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:39 am
voice of the crumbie wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:38 am
Dangerous4 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:26 pm
, There are things other than salary caps. They are the old fashioned non cash items. I've said it elsewhere. New cars, free holidays, etc. etc. Need I say more?
I have to admit that I do not have an in-depth knowledge of what is and is not policed under the salary cap. However I would imagine that these sorts of "benefits in kind" (to use an income tax related term) would be included. However if those with greater knowledge advise otherwise then I bow to their greater understanding of such matters.
Just part of the scope for credits that are available
Senior Ceiling credits
(a) Home Grown Senior Player Credits
In respect of the Senior Ceiling for the 2018-19 Salary Cap Year, a Club shall be entitled
to Home Grown Senior Player Credits of up to £600,000, subject to 3.2(b)(ii) below,
at a maximum rate of £50,000 for each of its Home Grown Senior Players, and in each
case, excluding any Players to whom paragraphs 2 (j), (l) or (q) of Schedule 1 apply
during the 2018-19 Salary Cap Year save for any element of Salary that is required to
be included in the Senior Ceiling in relation to such Players as provided for in these
Regulations.
(b) Senior EPS and International Player Credits
1. Where a Club is unable to select a Player in its squad for either an [Aviva]
Premiership or European Champions or Challenge Cup match as a result of that
Player (i) being selected in a match day squad by his national union and released
in accordance with World Rugby Regulation 9 or (ii) are absent under the terms of
the Heads of Agreement (or any successor of this agreement) (which includes EPS
Rest and Blocked weeks as defined in the Professional Game Agreement (or any
successor of this agreement) or (iii) released in accordance with any relevant PRL
Board Policy, and subject to Regulation 3.2(b)4 below, there shall be:
A. For any International Qualified Player, who is not a Senior EPS Player, a
£10,000 per [Aviva] Premiership or European Champions or Challenge Cup
match credit (“International Variable Player Credit”);
Thanks Trendy. Please enlighten me a little further. Does that mean that if these credits are applicable to any club that the said club can overspend the salary by those amounts with impunity? Meaning that if the full amount of example one you give above i.e. £600k were applicable a club's cap would rise from £7.5m to 8.1m? Or am I reading it wrongly?
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

h's dad
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by h's dad » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:17 pm

Dangerous4 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:26 pm
, There are things other than salary caps. They are the old fashioned non cash items. I've said it elsewhere. New cars, free holidays, etc. etc. Need I say more?
You needn't say more. You should try at least a cursory scan of the cap regulations.

And all of us with any acumen are aware that the RFU have knowledge of substantial breaches but has, with the connivance of the majority of clubs, elected to do nothing public about it. A shameful act in the eyes of many.
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h's dad
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by h's dad » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:29 pm

Cardiff Tig wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:49 pm
We used to have a starting XV and bench packed full of internationals. I very much doubt that Sarries are breaching the cap. Playing for a winning team, with a great work ethic and off-field atmosphere means they can offer less than we could for the same players.
Where have you been?
https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest- ... npunished/
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game

Ian Cant
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by Ian Cant » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:32 pm

Have to agree with Cardiff Tiger: it is easier to attract players for less when they know they are likely to win trophies and medals. Other teams accused us of breaking the salary cap back in the day of all our title wins. Cockerill, Rowntree, Garforth, West, Freshwater, Smith and many others were all offered more money but stayed because of the Tigers set up and chances of winning trophies. Personally I admire Sarries set up; produces England players, they rest players, every team is coached in the same way so that when anyone has to step up to the first team they do so seamlessly; the win against us was evidence of a well coached team not going into panic mode when behind.
Their attendance is growing and the supporters at Allianz Park are a good bunch.

BFG
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by BFG » Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:35 pm

Personally I think it's better to look at what you can control and despite all the rumour regarding salary cap breaches I just don't believe that Leicester are getting good enough value all round if they have been spending up to the cap limit!
I just don't see £7.5 million per annum of ability!

4071
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by 4071 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:08 pm

Crumblies wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:57 pm
[email protected] is at Allianz Park where @Saracens are missing six England players but have still named 10 internationals.

plus absence of Liam Williams and Jacques Burger, Sean Maitland, Marcello Bosch et all.

all within the salary cap of course? Its a joke competition!
We have nine full internationals competing for the three front row slots. Our third-string front row is all-international. Sarries' third-string front row is Barrington-Woolstencroft-Judge, none of whom are capped.

It's not unusual to have a lot of internationals. It's a question of whether you have the right ones, and do you have the depth of quality throughout the squad or do you do absolutely mad in a couple of positions.

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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by ourla » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:01 pm

Smudge wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:35 pm
Yet breaches occur all the time.
Please can you give us your reliable source for this information.

There was a breach 5 years ago that was dealt with in an underhand manner behind closed doors.

But anything else afaik is idle speculation.

At worst it's something we have full control over and condone. The Prem of which we are a member sets and enforces it's own rules.
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by ourla » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:05 pm

h's dad wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:29 pm
Cardiff Tig wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:49 pm
We used to have a starting XV and bench packed full of internationals. I very much doubt that Sarries are breaching the cap. Playing for a winning team, with a great work ethic and off-field atmosphere means they can offer less than we could for the same players.
Where have you been?
https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest- ... npunished/
That is from 5 years ago.
You're either in or you're out

h's dad
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by h's dad » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:16 pm

ourla wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:05 pm
h's dad wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:29 pm
Cardiff Tig wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:49 pm
We used to have a starting XV and bench packed full of internationals. I very much doubt that Sarries are breaching the cap. Playing for a winning team, with a great work ethic and off-field atmosphere means they can offer less than we could for the same players.
Where have you been?
https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest- ... npunished/
That is from 5 years ago.
Nearer three. What do you think has changed?
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ourla
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by ourla » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:24 pm

h's dad wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:16 pm
ourla wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:05 pm
h's dad wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 1:29 pm

Where have you been?
https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest- ... npunished/
That is from 5 years ago.
Nearer three. What do you think has changed?
The report is dated September 8, 2015 and follows a "nine-month investigation" and the investigation will be into historical breaches - so takes you way back into 2014.

What has changed? Well for a start, I suspect part of the cover was done on the basis you can't keep doing it. The salary cap has also been substantially increased.

There have been several publicised minor technical breaches since but no serious allegations of major breaches.
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ourla
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by ourla » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:26 pm

Also worth noting the other team that did breach back in 2014 was Bath, who are still under the same sugar daddy. Now, either #1 - he's stopped ploughing so much money in or #2 - they are even worse than we are at spending it.
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h's dad
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by h's dad » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:38 pm

ourla wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:24 pm
h's dad wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:16 pm
ourla wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:05 pm

That is from 5 years ago.
Nearer three. What do you think has changed?
The report is dated September 8, 2015 and follows a "nine-month investigation" and the investigation will be into historical breaches - so takes you way back into 2014.

What has changed? Well for a start, I suspect part of the cover was done on the basis you can't keep doing it. The salary cap has also been substantially increased.

There have been several publicised minor technical breaches since but no serious allegations of major breaches.
Do you really think all the fiddles stopped the moment the investigation started?
And the investigation was shelved largely because of blustering and threats from the accused parties. Absolutely no contrition or commitment not to reoffend.
If you think it has all gone away you are free to adhere to that opinion.
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Scott1
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by Scott1 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:51 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong too but weren't we one of the clubs that voted AGAINST an investigation?

h's dad
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Re: Proof if proof were needed

Post by h's dad » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:57 pm

Scott1 wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:51 pm
Correct me if I'm wrong too but weren't we one of the clubs that voted AGAINST an investigation?
I believe Tigers voted to suspend the investigation, along with everybody else with the honourable exceptions of Wasps and Harlequins.
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