ay2oh wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:36 pm
Suggest that you start watching another sport BFG as it would appear that you know nothing about rugby
Could you be a little more specific please as I would welcome a cogent demolition of BFG's points.
The only thing I can see in BFG's post to really argue with is to say that it is no coincidence that Leicester have had the two worst seasons in history since GF returned. To be fair to GF the coaching turmoil has been a disaster, I'm not at all sure that we have sufficient specialist coaches and the general team malaise is palpable. I would suggest this is not all attributable to the Ford factor. I may be wrong.
Apart from that I would like somebody competent and bi-optic to tell me where BFG is wrong.
Thank you.
I take the point about the coaching chaos squarely on the chin and it's something that I considered in the first place, but I thought that how and when Ford chooses to pivot and how that works for the rest of the team in their structure had possibly brought added confusion.
He is a talented player and there is no doubt about that but how that fits amongst the rest of the team and how the two understand and get the best out of one another is a complex issue which could also likely require further coaching expertise.
Manu is more valuable in my opinion, his ability to simplify the game is one that is pretty rare in the position, but he is a also an intelligent rugby player himself when encouraged to be so in my opinion.
By the way thanks for the advice ay2oh, I've seen quite a bit of other sports already and league in particular, and had my eyes opened which is possibly why I get it and you don't!
I did say last season that Toomua was the better FH for us because he suited our game better and was shouted down. Glad it's not just me! Although this season at times GF has singlehandedly carried us,playing alongside a totally out of form SH and behind a powderpuff pack he's still the GP top point scorer and his try counts the highest it's ever been . Are we where we are this season because of GF? Absolutely not,a million % not imo
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Bath got to the prem final for the first time in 10+ years with Ford at 10, but yes it didn't work out did it......
The no coincidence that Leicester have had the two worst seasons in recent history can be point down on anything, from the weakening of the forward pack, the constant coach changes etc etc but nope it's Ford... The fact that Tigers was in a downwards trajectory long before Ford arrival shows nothing of course...
But then again Ford was an International 10 that went unbeaten for 18 games, current prem top points scorer.
The attack has clearly been better for the most part with Ford at 10 under Murphy, Now I Ford didn't work for MOC style I will admit that but he is working on Murphy.
Defence it's harder to judge lack of defence coach and defence structure plays a decent part in that. He aint' Farrell (Who should be carded more and misses more but at least puts pressure on opposition, but how many 10's are Farrell style (Who :censored: the bed v Wales BTW).
Reason why Saracens and Chiefs don't want him, they are system 10's, why havn't Sarries played Malins over Goode? becuase Goode can play to their system, why is Simmonds not able to top 100 year old steenson? because he fits a system.
Murphy system currently works best with Ford at 10. (Not saying much given results) You can't paint all the teams with the same brush because coaches don't play the same way.
But then again certain posters love in for Toomua at 10 has died down a bit from last year.
Give Hardwick grief for making such a basic error as missing a pen kick to touch, doesn't mention Toomua miss kick to touch in the same game, or Toomua's missed kicks the week before v Saracens.
On Manu v Ford, Manu would be easier and cheaper to replace.
Was that me re Toomua RB? He was better last season at 10 alongside SH imo. But he's a shadow of himself this season. But imo more blame has to go to our slow motion 9s,we've missed Harrison badly!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Scott1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:35 am
Was that me re Toomua RB? He was better last season at 10 alongside SH imo. But he's a shadow of himself this season. But imo more blame has to go to our slow motion 9s,we've missed Harrison badly!
Not you I was thinking about.
Is the 9 at fault, for Toomua miss kicks to touch?
Is the 9 at fault for Toomua miss pens in front of the posts?
Toomua at 10 doesn't work with Murphy, which is kind of my point with 10's its more down to the systems, Murphy and Ford suit each other generally even with the powderpuff forwards.
Toomua and MOC worked well, although people forget the Sale away game last season with Ford, or the control he showed v Wasps at Home.
RagingBull wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:28 am
Bath got to the prem final for the first time in 10+ years with Ford at 10, but yes it didn't work out did it......
The no coincidence that Leicester have had the two worst seasons in recent history can be point down on anything, from the weakening of the forward pack, the constant coach changes etc etc but nope it's Ford... The fact that Tigers was in a downwards trajectory long before Ford arrival shows nothing of course...
But then again Ford was an International 10 that went unbeaten for 18 games, current prem top points scorer.
The attack has clearly been better for the most part with Ford at 10 under Murphy, Now I Ford didn't work for MOC style I will admit that but he is working on Murphy.
Defence it's harder to judge lack of defence coach and defence structure plays a decent part in that. He aint' Farrell (Who should be carded more and misses more but at least puts pressure on opposition, but how many 10's are Farrell style (Who the bed v Wales BTW).
Reason why Saracens and Chiefs don't want him, they are system 10's, why havn't Sarries played Malins over Goode? becuase Goode can play to their system, why is Simmonds not able to top 100 year old steenson? because he fits a system.
Murphy system currently works best with Ford at 10. (Not saying much given results) You can't paint all the teams with the same brush because coaches don't play the same way.
But then again certain posters love in for Toomua at 10 has died down a bit from last year.
Give Hardwick grief for making such a basic error as missing a pen kick to touch, doesn't mention Toomua miss kick to touch in the same game, or Toomua's missed kicks the week before v Saracens.
On Manu v Ford, Manu would be easier and cheaper to replace.
Who in world rugby will replace Manu, an alternative can be got but you can't replace him.
That a club like Racing92 want him says it all.
I think that you mostly back up my point regarding systems etc.
Regarding your Toomua and Hardwick comment, in the context of the two games the timing of the error against Wuss was a very big one, but then you do like taking things out of context and stretching them don't you.
RagingBull wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:28 am
Bath got to the prem final for the first time in 10+ years with Ford at 10, but yes it didn't work out did it......
The no coincidence that Leicester have had the two worst seasons in recent history can be point down on anything, from the weakening of the forward pack, the constant coach changes etc etc but nope it's Ford... The fact that Tigers was in a downwards trajectory long before Ford arrival shows nothing of course...
But then again Ford was an International 10 that went unbeaten for 18 games, current prem top points scorer.
The attack has clearly been better for the most part with Ford at 10 under Murphy, Now I Ford didn't work for MOC style I will admit that but he is working on Murphy.
Defence it's harder to judge lack of defence coach and defence structure plays a decent part in that. He aint' Farrell (Who should be carded more and misses more but at least puts pressure on opposition, but how many 10's are Farrell style (Who the bed v Wales BTW).
Reason why Saracens and Chiefs don't want him, they are system 10's, why havn't Sarries played Malins over Goode? becuase Goode can play to their system, why is Simmonds not able to top 100 year old steenson? because he fits a system.
Murphy system currently works best with Ford at 10. (Not saying much given results) You can't paint all the teams with the same brush because coaches don't play the same way.
But then again certain posters love in for Toomua at 10 has died down a bit from last year.
Give Hardwick grief for making such a basic error as missing a pen kick to touch, doesn't mention Toomua miss kick to touch in the same game, or Toomua's missed kicks the week before v Saracens.
On Manu v Ford, Manu would be easier and cheaper to replace.
Who in world rugby will replace Manu, an alternative can be got but you can't replace him.
That a club like Racing92 want him says it all.
I think that you mostly back up my point regarding systems etc.
Regarding your Toomua and Hardwick comment, in the context of the two games the timing of the error against Wuss was a very big one, but then you do like taking things out of context and stretching them don't you.
BFG wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:41 pm
Hardwick was one that a player in that position just shouldn't be making, and especially for the sort of money rumoured.
Yet the marquee player missing the kick to touch that would have put us in the 22.
I mean that is nothing right....
You talk about Ford defensive liabilities yet suggest bringing Umaga back as a 10, go makes Ford look like a defensive god.(and a year or two older than Hardwick)
Just watch the top 14 or Super rugby to see plenty of PI 13’s that can do what Manu does on the whole maybe not as well to a full extent but not that much of a drop off.
RagingBull wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:28 am
Bath got to the prem final for the first time in 10+ years with Ford at 10, but yes it didn't work out did it......
The no coincidence that Leicester have had the two worst seasons in recent history can be point down on anything, from the weakening of the forward pack, the constant coach changes etc etc but nope it's Ford... The fact that Tigers was in a downwards trajectory long before Ford arrival shows nothing of course...
But then again Ford was an International 10 that went unbeaten for 18 games, current prem top points scorer.
The attack has clearly been better for the most part with Ford at 10 under Murphy, Now I Ford didn't work for MOC style I will admit that but he is working on Murphy.
Defence it's harder to judge lack of defence coach and defence structure plays a decent part in that. He aint' Farrell (Who should be carded more and misses more but at least puts pressure on opposition, but how many 10's are Farrell style (Who the bed v Wales BTW).
Reason why Saracens and Chiefs don't want him, they are system 10's, why havn't Sarries played Malins over Goode? becuase Goode can play to their system, why is Simmonds not able to top 100 year old steenson? because he fits a system.
Murphy system currently works best with Ford at 10. (Not saying much given results) You can't paint all the teams with the same brush because coaches don't play the same way.
But then again certain posters love in for Toomua at 10 has died down a bit from last year.
Give Hardwick grief for making such a basic error as missing a pen kick to touch, doesn't mention Toomua miss kick to touch in the same game, or Toomua's missed kicks the week before v Saracens.
On Manu v Ford, Manu would be easier and cheaper to replace.
Who in world rugby will replace Manu, an alternative can be got but you can't replace him.
That a club like Racing92 want him says it all.
I think that you mostly back up my point regarding systems etc.
Regarding your Toomua and Hardwick comment, in the context of the two games the timing of the error against Wuss was a very big one, but then you do like taking things out of context and stretching them don't you.
Pot Kettle Black
I'd fully expect that on here.
Maybe you'd like to have a go at explaining our league position and how we are going to climb up the table in the future.
I read comments saying that we have powderpuff forwards (which is tripe) that are ruining a stellar fly half who deserves a pay bump, then I also read that we can't buy in the best forwards because they are too costly, so perhaps you'd like to have a go at making some sense of it all!
BFG wrote: ↑Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:41 pm
Hardwick was one that a player in that position just shouldn't be making, and especially for the sort of money rumoured.
Yet the marquee player missing the kick to touch that would have put us in the 22.
I mean that is nothing right....
You talk about Ford defensive liabilities yet suggest bringing Umaga back as a 10, go makes Ford look like a defensive god.(and a year or two older than Hardwick)
Just watch the top 14 or Super rugby to see plenty of PI 13’s that can do what Manu does on the whole maybe not as well to a full extent but not that much of a drop off.
Toomua looks like he can't be gone quick enough, but then given how slow our ball was on Sunday I'm not surprised.
You know as well as I do that Umaga isn't two years older, there you go stretching things again.
I just want a well balanced fly half, someone who can defend and attack, play in structure with the forwards with some vision, I don't think that we have all that and it's as simple as that.
Powderpuff forwards is tripe? Nonsense! Our metres made have been in the negative for as far back as I can remember,the stats are there it's fact! We've got a fantastic scrum saving us that's it!
"Rugby isn't a contact sport,ballroom dancing is a contact sport. Rugby is a collision sport" Heyneke Meyer
Explain to me how the powderpuff forwards is tripe then? The starting pack alone missed 15 tackles the entire Worcester 23 missed 11, and the ones that got made were rarely dominant hits. Players like Kitchener are easy meters as you like to describe Fords defence difference being Forwards are expected to be more dominant.
I don't think I've said Ford should have a pay bump, but he's been worth his money currently.
Best forwards don't necessarily = the most expensive forwards, not that hard to wrap your head around is it.
Don't get me wrong would love a PSDT type player, but signing a couple big name forwards don't win you anything unless you have the right depth as Bath showed when they signed Charteris and Faletau.
I said 1 or 2 older there you go stretching things again.
Looking more in depth to it Umaga is basically 1 year and 4 months older...
And before we start going for Mariah, all I want is for England to win the RWC, it's as simple as that really...
Last edited by RagingBull on Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scott1 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:53 am
Powderpuff forwards is tripe? Nonsense! Our metres made have been in the negative for as far back as I can remember,the stats are there it's fact! We've got a fantastic scrum saving us that's it!
We had a similar debate about a year ago Scott, and sort of agreed to agree that when you have slow ruck ball and a stand off pivoting everything about ten metres back from the gain line then it makes life quite difficult for 18 stone forwards.
RagingBull wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:02 pm
Explain to me how the powderpuff forwards is tripe then? The starting pack alone missed 15 tackles the entire Worcester 23 missed 11, and the ones that got made were rarely dominant hits. Players like Kitchener are easy meters as you like to describe Fords defence difference being Forwards are expected to be more dominant.
I don't think I've said Ford should have a pay bump, but he's been worth his money currently.
Best forwards don't necessarily = the most expensive forwards, not that hard to wrap your head around is it.
Don't get me wrong would love a PSDT type player, but signing a couple big name forwards don't win you anything unless you have the right depth as Bath showed when they signed Charteris and Faletau.
I said 1 or 2 older there you go stretching things again. Looking more in depth to it Umaga is basically 1 year and 4 months older...
And before we start going for Mariah, all I want is for England to win the RWC, it's as simple as that really...
If you say so, it looks like seven and a half months to me!
the bed v Wales BTW).