English clubs the new Italian clubs?

[Not a jock]

With the conclusion of the group stage of the Champions Cup I can't help but notice that with no Italian clubs in this competition, English teams fil the bottom spot in all groups containing one English team, withe the exception of Saracens. Furthermore in the two groups containing two English teams, one is third and the other is second but only on some obscure tie-breaker. To add insult to injury, two Scottish franchises have qualified for the knockout stage (but none from Wales).

Again, with the exception of Saracens, it seems some time since we had a reasonable representation of English clubs at the business end of top tier European competition, yet they seem to thrive in the Challenge Cup. Given the resources (eg budgets, pool of players etc) in England (and France) compared to the Pro12 countries, why aren't we doing better at the top tier of Europe? Presumably it has something to do with flogging the players in the domestic league so they are incapable of raising their games for Europe (and internationals).

For the purposes of the H-cup, I wonder if England should revert to regional rugby (cf North vs All Blacks in Otley etc) with England-qualified players only representing the North (drawn from Sale, Newcastle, Leeds/YC etc), Midlands (Tigers, Saints, Worcester, Wasps?!), South (Saracens, Quins, L Irish) and Southwest (Chiefs, Bath, Bristol, Gloucester). That could act as an extended trial and boost the England team? A sort of Premier Cup could be played concurrently using fringe, overseas and developing players.

Unless something gives or changes soon, I see rugby union going the way of darts and boxing with multiple competing organizations, each with its own "champions". RFU/England might offer central contracts to ~50-100 players (when their club contracts expire) and keep them match fit by playing regional rugby. The Premier Clubs might actually precipitate this by breaking away anyway! If they do, presumably the RFU will retaliate by not picking their players to represent England and withdrawing funding.

[ellis9]

No we don't need regional rugby.

[Scott1]

The premiership clubs won't break away,afaik they get £30m off the RFU but only £20m off CVC (figures could be out a bit) so there's no chance that's going to happen.

[Scott1]

As for the RCC go back to the tournament after the last RWC when it was an even platform as regards to player rest and see how many PRO12 clubs qualified for the knockout stages! It has a huge bearing on the failure of English clubs. You only have to look at the success of Edinburgh and the plight of Newcastle to see one such example. Before they played each other in December Cockers rested near enough the whole team in a massive loss away to Munster conceding 8 tries and nearly 50 points (this is December and Edinburgh still haven't won a league away game!!!) while Newcastle had to do the opposite due to the threat of relegation! They were well on their way to a European as adventure too.
This isn't a new thing either,the Irish teams have been putting out B teams the week before a European game for an age. Look at the AIs,the Irish 23 who beat the AB didn't play again for two weeks until Europe started back up,our players were straight back in. The season after the Lion's tour the English player with the least minutes played (who didn't suffer an injury) played more than the most played Irish player!
This has to stop and the first port of call should be ringfencing. The threat of relegation has to come to an end,even Blackadder and Ackermann are bemoaning the attritional league we are in. And it makes for poor games too sometimes due to teams but taking any chances.

[Mark62]

Totally agree with all previous posters. We are not on level playing field with Irish and Scottish provinces and cash rich French sides.
We don’t need regional sides we need the amount of rugby played by our top players regulated so they can compete.

Until this is done Tigers really gain nothing from qualifying for a competition they stand practically no chance of winning and may win 2 of their home games.
Wouldn’t it be better to play in a more competitive competition, the odd Romanian side withstanding, that we may stand a chance of competing in. And I would say that at the moment that rings true for all but 2 premiership teams

[Hot_Charlie]

No we don't need regional rugby.

And who'd go and watch it? Who would compensate the clubs for the lose gate revenue?

Regional rugby works for Ireland. The two club system has worked well for Scotland this year. Regional rugby has been a disaster for fans in Wales.

Just let it be. These things are cyclical.

[Tiger93]

Scrap central contracts and force competitions to be competed by CLUBS and not franchises, region or provinces.

[BFG]

I think that their players get flogged more than most and yet Saracens seem to do alright in Europe, which would suggest to me that if teams are really good enough then nothing else matters.
I watched Exeter away in Munster and it wasn't a bad match up at all, low scoring and very high intensity, Munster didn't score any tries and Exeter could've won that match had they been a bit smarter and taken the occasional three points in my opinion.
I thought that Leicester should've won against Ulster and unfortunately were inconsistent in some of their execution, not unusual in any competition.
English teams are competitive but two things lack for me in the sides that didn't qualify in the Champions Cup, being tactically smart and accuracy in execution, both of which Saracens are very good at.

[ghdav27]

As for the RCC go back to the tournament after the last RWC when it was an even platform as regards to player rest and see how many PRO12 clubs qualified for the knockout stages! It has a huge bearing on the failure of English clubs. You only have to look at the success of Edinburgh and the plight of Newcastle to see one such example. Before they played each other in December Cockers rested near enough the whole team in a massive loss away to Munster conceding 8 tries and nearly 50 points (this is December and Edinburgh still haven't won a league away game!!!) while Newcastle had to do the opposite due to the threat of relegation! They were well on their way to a European as adventure too.
This isn't a new thing either,the Irish teams have been putting out B teams the week before a European game for an age. Look at the AIs,the Irish 23 who beat the AB didn't play again for two weeks until Europe started back up,our players were straight back in. The season after the Lion's tour the English player with the least minutes played (who didn't suffer an injury) played more than the most played Irish player!
This has to stop and the first port of call should be ringfencing. The threat of relegation has to come to an end,even Blackadder and Ackermann are bemoaning the attritional league we are in. And it makes for poor games too sometimes due to teams but taking any chances.

So Exeter didn’t qualify for the knockout stages because they are concerned about relegation? All ringfencing will do is increase the number of meaningless games.

[Big Dai]

No we don't need regional rugby.

If you're going to compete with the likes of Leinster and the sweaties, you need regional rugby. Up the Midlands!

[Mark62]

So as a paper exercise and saying there would be 3 teams each in 4 regions what would those regions be:

South - Saracens, Harlequins Northampton

West - Exeter, Bath, Bristol.

Midlands - Gloucester , Worcester, Wasps.

North - Sale Newcastle, Tigers. On the basis that we are the furthest north of the midlands sides.

[Hot_Charlie]

So as a paper exercise and saying there would be 3 teams each in 4 regions what would those regions be:

South - Saracens, Harlequins Northampton

West - Exeter, Bath, Bristol.

Midlands - Northampton, Worcester, Wasps.

North - Sale Newcastle, Tigers. On the basis that we are the furthest north of the midlands sides.

But where would the north team play, considering Tigers are the best supported? Derby? Nottingham?It’d make sense to send Wasps!

[Hot_Charlie]

So Exeter didn’t qualify for the knockout stages because they are concerned about relegation? All ringfencing will do is increase the number of meaningless games.

Exeter partly failed to qualify as they forget that before you can get the 5 points, you need to ensure you win the first 4 points. Got to win the match before you go chasing try BPs.

[Dangerous4]

So as a paper exercise and saying there would be 3 teams each in 4 regions what would those regions be:

South - Saracens, Harlequins Northampton

West - Exeter, Bath, Bristol.

Midlands - Northampton, Worcester, Wasps.

North - Sale Newcastle, Tigers. On the basis that we are the furthest north of the midlands sides.

So you have Northampton playing for both the South and the Midlands. I can't really see that happening somehow.

[DeadlyDunc]

As for the RCC go back to the tournament after the last RWC when it was an even platform as regards to player rest and see how many PRO12 clubs qualified for the knockout stages! It has a huge bearing on the failure of English clubs. You only have to look at the success of Edinburgh and the plight of Newcastle to see one such example. Before they played each other in December Cockers rested near enough the whole team in a massive loss away to Munster conceding 8 tries and nearly 50 points (this is December and Edinburgh still haven't won a league away game!!!) while Newcastle had to do the opposite due to the threat of relegation! They were well on their way to a European as adventure too.
This isn't a new thing either,the Irish teams have been putting out B teams the week before a European game for an age. Look at the AIs,the Irish 23 who beat the AB didn't play again for two weeks until Europe started back up,our players were straight back in. The season after the Lion's tour the English player with the least minutes played (who didn't suffer an injury) played more than the most played Irish player!
This has to stop and the first port of call should be ringfencing. The threat of relegation has to come to an end,even Blackadder and Ackermann are bemoaning the attritional league we are in. And it makes for poor games too sometimes due to teams but taking any chances.

I agree, the big shift was when the qualification criteria changed for PRO12 clubs. Since then its suited them to a tee and massively impacted on the English clubs.