New Coach?

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wormus
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Re: New Coach?

Post by wormus » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:07 am

nasher wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:11 pm
No but I am fed up of pollsters continually wanting a new coach. The trouble is far higher than the coach!
Oh so it's a "Double decker!" you want now, keep ebaying, but I have full confidence in Geordan and most of his team of coaches.

Leicestertinytiger
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Re: New Coach?

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:16 am

The players have repeatedly stated they are fed up with the coaches merry go round so I imagine Murphy will be here to stay. Not a bad thing as the current problems aren’t his fault and he seems to have a long term vision to turn things around. No quick or easy fix.

The other coaches I’m not so sure about bar Stanko. We could really do with a new forwards coach who can forge a pack working as a unit. Exeter don’t have that many big names in their forwards but they operate together very well.

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Re: New Coach?

Post by BFG » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:39 am

Leicestertinytiger wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:16 am
The players have repeatedly stated they are fed up with the coaches merry go round so I imagine Murphy will be here to stay. Not a bad thing as the current problems aren’t his fault and he seems to have a long term vision to turn things around. No quick or easy fix.

The other coaches I’m not so sure about bar Stanko. We could really do with a new forwards coach who can forge a pack working as a unit. Exeter don’t have that many big names in their forwards but they operate together very well.
What makes you not sure about the others but sure about Stanko?
I am genuinely interested in why he is held above others in terms coaching expertise because the likes of Cole, Youngs, Bateman and Genge were already exceptional scrummagers before he arrived and it has been really tough going for the rest.
What has been particularly apparent from the rest is no scrum dominance that isn't offset in any way by added mobility around the park.

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Re: New Coach?

Post by mol2 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:04 am

BFG wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:39 am

What makes you not sure about the others but sure about Stanko?
I am genuinely interested in why he is held above others in terms coaching expertise because the likes of Cole, Youngs, Bateman and Genge were already exceptional scrummagers before he arrived and it has been really tough going for the rest.
What has been particularly apparent from the rest is no scrum dominance that isn't offset in any way by added mobility around the park.
I'm not sure that Youngs and Bateman were great scrummagers before he arrived.

It has taken Bateman some time to convert to prop - although I think he would have made a great hooker if he'd been given the opportunity. Tigers needed a prop and he was up against Youngs. He could have been a hooker in the mould of Steve Thompson. However Cockers has a blind spot when it comes to big hookers.

Youngs has become a better scrummager under Stanko.

Leicestertinytiger
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Re: New Coach?

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 am

mol2 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:04 am
BFG wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:39 am

What makes you not sure about the others but sure about Stanko?
I am genuinely interested in why he is held above others in terms coaching expertise because the likes of Cole, Youngs, Bateman and Genge were already exceptional scrummagers before he arrived and it has been really tough going for the rest.
What has been particularly apparent from the rest is no scrum dominance that isn't offset in any way by added mobility around the park.
I'm not sure that Youngs and Bateman were great scrummagers before he arrived.

It has taken Bateman some time to convert to prop - although I think he would have made a great hooker if he'd been given the opportunity. Tigers needed a prop and he was up against Youngs. He could have been a hooker in the mould of Steve Thompson. However Cockers has a blind spot when it comes to big hookers.

Youngs has become a better scrummager under Stanko.
Stanko is the scrum coach. Our scrum is the best in the premiership. Regardless of the players at his disposal he deserves the credit.

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Re: New Coach?

Post by Cagey Tiger » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:22 am

BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:30 pm
I think MOC lacked belief in large parts of the current set up, just my opinion going on the body language.
He had no problem with bringing on the likes of Harrison and Tuilagi during his first spell with Leicester, if the quality was apparent then he gave youth the opportunity.(1)
I can still remember MOC pairing Allen and Manu in the centres and some folk going potty about it on here saying Allen didn't offer enough in attack and Manu was too young and defensively naive.
Our current league position does back up MOC's reluctance to include the current youth(2), I haven't seen anything stand out and it's more in hope than certainty in my opinion.
These past few matches have been very disappointing and we are closer to relegation than ever.
MOC was lambasted for selecting the safe J Ford and yet he was the stand out in the Wasps win.(3)
I was also under the impression that during his second spell MOC was simply head coach and not solely responsible for recruitment, I thought a committee did that sort of thing these days.
Expectations next season will be unrealistically high(4), the current state, new players and the World Cup won't bring the level of continuity required, in my opinion.
(1) my biggest beef during his first spell was that replacements were hardly ever used and young players got little opportunity.

(2) re-arranging your sentence "MOC's reluctance to include the current youth does back up our current league position." IMHO that's also a valid way of liking at it. Good or bad, they are young AND inexperienced at Premiership level when we are bereft of internationals and injured players.

(3) I see you pick out his single "good" performance, ignoring the other "not-so-good" ones.

(4) I'm not sure what you mean by "unrealistically high". With one particular, well known, exception, the expectations I have seen on here are for a better season than this one, with the proviso that it will depend on what forwards we have. Rumours of quite a few departures but very few replacements, even rumoured, so far. Like many on here I'm sure, I'm waiting to see what the squad is like before deciding what my hopes/expectations are.

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Re: New Coach?

Post by chewbacca » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:33 am

Leicestertinytiger wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 am
mol2 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:04 am
BFG wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:39 am

What makes you not sure about the others but sure about Stanko?
I am genuinely interested in why he is held above others in terms coaching expertise because the likes of Cole, Youngs, Bateman and Genge were already exceptional scrummagers before he arrived and it has been really tough going for the rest.
What has been particularly apparent from the rest is no scrum dominance that isn't offset in any way by added mobility around the park.
I'm not sure that Youngs and Bateman were great scrummagers before he arrived.

It has taken Bateman some time to convert to prop - although I think he would have made a great hooker if he'd been given the opportunity. Tigers needed a prop and he was up against Youngs. He could have been a hooker in the mould of Steve Thompson. However Cockers has a blind spot when it comes to big hookers.

Youngs has become a better scrummager under Stanko.
Stanko is the scrum coach. Our scrum is the best in the premiership. Regardless of the players at his disposal he deserves the credit.
An interesting conundrum. It has been said that our lack of performance is attributable to the squad not being one of Geordan's selection and new signings are needed for him to be able to implement his style of play. Interesting in that Stanko seems to be able to get the best out of the resources he has available so would we not be better to ask our players to do what they are capable of rather than attempt to play in a style they aren't.
I'm not cynical just experienced

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Re: New Coach?

Post by BFG » Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:59 pm

chewbacca wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:33 am
Leicestertinytiger wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:18 am
mol2 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:04 am


I'm not sure that Youngs and Bateman were great scrummagers before he arrived.

It has taken Bateman some time to convert to prop - although I think he would have made a great hooker if he'd been given the opportunity. Tigers needed a prop and he was up against Youngs. He could have been a hooker in the mould of Steve Thompson. However Cockers has a blind spot when it comes to big hookers.

Youngs has become a better scrummager under Stanko.
Stanko is the scrum coach. Our scrum is the best in the premiership. Regardless of the players at his disposal he deserves the credit.
An interesting conundrum. It has been said that our lack of performance is attributable to the squad not being one of Geordan's selection and new signings are needed for him to be able to implement his style of play. Interesting in that Stanko seems to be able to get the best out of the resources he has available so would we not be better to ask our players to do what they are capable of rather than attempt to play in a style they aren't.
I don't get the chorus around Stanko and at the same time doubt cast on the other coaches.
My point is that Leicester already had top class scrummagers in the likes of Cole and Genge and no matter what anyone says above Youngs and Bateman have been strong scrummagers for a very long time.
I look at the younger players and just don't see anything spectacular taking place amongst the scrum in comparison to other areas, the backs for example with Olowafela or Hardwick or even Worth who has come on a lot and yet the backs coaches are doubted.
Even the line out has had it's positives in Kerr and yet Bakewell gets no credit.
It doesn't make sense and appears sentimental in my opinion!

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Re: New Coach?

Post by johnthegriff » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:36 pm

Over many years I have read comments about the coaches on various messageboards, supporters make statements based on their opinion without knowing any of the facts. I believe the curent performance is down to the players or lack of them. Defence has been an issue, I believed that on many occasions coaching got the men in position but a player was ineffective with his tackle, with the arrival of Phil Blake defence is undoubtedly better and is improving, I say that despite last Friday's performance. The lineout which was awful for a period going back to the differences of approach between Mauger and Cocker has gradually improved under Mark Bakewell, he was not to blame for the "not straight " throws by Taf at Worcester, and recently we have had a couple of successful driving mauls. The set scrum under both Cocker and Stanko have generally been ok. The backs have not in my opinion broken the opposition line often enough and rarely by sidestep, clever passing or elusive running. We have missed Vieanu badly but I do see signs that are backs play is becoming more clever as Geordan and Anthony Allen take charge. The coaches are a team, Geordan has expressed his confidence in them and I believe he and his team should be given the time to make the necessary improvements. I don't think we should single out coaches for blame or praise that is Geordan's job, after all he is the only one actually in a position to know if success or lack of it is down to coach or player and ultimately it will be Geordan who will be held responsible for results.

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Re: New Coach?

Post by BFG » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:44 pm

Cagey Tiger wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:22 am
BFG wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:30 pm
I think MOC lacked belief in large parts of the current set up, just my opinion going on the body language.
He had no problem with bringing on the likes of Harrison and Tuilagi during his first spell with Leicester, if the quality was apparent then he gave youth the opportunity.(1)
I can still remember MOC pairing Allen and Manu in the centres and some folk going potty about it on here saying Allen didn't offer enough in attack and Manu was too young and defensively naive.
Our current league position does back up MOC's reluctance to include the current youth(2), I haven't seen anything stand out and it's more in hope than certainty in my opinion.
These past few matches have been very disappointing and we are closer to relegation than ever.
MOC was lambasted for selecting the safe J Ford and yet he was the stand out in the Wasps win.(3)
I was also under the impression that during his second spell MOC was simply head coach and not solely responsible for recruitment, I thought a committee did that sort of thing these days.
Expectations next season will be unrealistically high(4), the current state, new players and the World Cup won't bring the level of continuity required, in my opinion.
(1) my biggest beef during his first spell was that replacements were hardly ever used and young players got little opportunity.

(2) re-arranging your sentence "MOC's reluctance to include the current youth does back up our current league position." IMHO that's also a valid way of liking at it. Good or bad, they are young AND inexperienced at Premiership level when we are bereft of internationals and injured players.

(3) I see you pick out his single "good" performance, ignoring the other "not-so-good" ones.

(4) I'm not sure what you mean by "unrealistically high". With one particular, well known, exception, the expectations I have seen on here are for a better season than this one, with the proviso that it will depend on what forwards we have. Rumours of quite a few departures but very few replacements, even rumoured, so far. Like many on here I'm sure, I'm waiting to see what the squad is like before deciding what my hopes/expectations are.
Well we won't have long to find out either way but many seem to be expecting a miracle during pre-season but I expect Tuafua could arrive later and the internationals will be involved in a World Cup and that's without other disruptions.
There won't be a great level of continuity.
You can put a group of the best players in the world together (Toulon) and if they don't know eachother well enough then it's hard going.
Our scrum coach gets a chorus of approval and it's probably the easiest area to coach in terms of it's slow and methodical nature, everything else is done much quicker.

voice of the crumbie
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Re: New Coach?

Post by voice of the crumbie » Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:53 pm

johnthegriff wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:36 pm
Over many years I have read comments about the coaches on various messageboards, supporters make statements based on their opinion without knowing any of the facts. I believe the curent performance is down to the players or lack of them. Defence has been an issue, I believed that on many occasions coaching got the men in position but a player was ineffective with his tackle, with the arrival of Phil Blake defence is undoubtedly better and is improving, I say that despite last Friday's performance. The lineout which was awful for a period going back to the differences of approach between Mauger and Cocker has gradually improved under Mark Bakewell, he was not to blame for the "not straight " throws by Taf at Worcester, and recently we have had a couple of successful driving mauls. The set scrum under both Cocker and Stanko have generally been ok. The backs have not in my opinion broken the opposition line often enough and rarely by sidestep, clever passing or elusive running. We have missed Vieanu badly but I do see signs that are backs play is becoming more clever as Geordan and Anthony Allen take charge. The coaches are a team, Geordan has expressed his confidence in them and I believe he and his team should be given the time to make the necessary improvements. I don't think we should single out coaches for blame or praise that is Geordan's job, after all he is the only one actually in a position to know if success or lack of it is down to coach or player and ultimately it will be Geordan who will be held responsible for results.
:smt023 Spot on John with respect to the current coaching regime.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

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Re: New Coach?

Post by chewbacca » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:17 pm

voice of the crumbie wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:53 pm
johnthegriff wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:36 pm
Over many years I have read comments about the coaches on various messageboards, supporters make statements based on their opinion without knowing any of the facts. I believe the curent performance is down to the players or lack of them. Defence has been an issue, I believed that on many occasions coaching got the men in position but a player was ineffective with his tackle, with the arrival of Phil Blake defence is undoubtedly better and is improving, I say that despite last Friday's performance. The lineout which was awful for a period going back to the differences of approach between Mauger and Cocker has gradually improved under Mark Bakewell, he was not to blame for the "not straight " throws by Taf at Worcester, and recently we have had a couple of successful driving mauls. The set scrum under both Cocker and Stanko have generally been ok. The backs have not in my opinion broken the opposition line often enough and rarely by sidestep, clever passing or elusive running. We have missed Vieanu badly but I do see signs that are backs play is becoming more clever as Geordan and Anthony Allen take charge. The coaches are a team, Geordan has expressed his confidence in them and I believe he and his team should be given the time to make the necessary improvements. I don't think we should single out coaches for blame or praise that is Geordan's job, after all he is the only one actually in a position to know if success or lack of it is down to coach or player and ultimately it will be Geordan who will be held responsible for results.
:smt023 Spot on John with respect to the current coaching regime.
I agree with you. I posed the conundrum as I felt the CEO remarks regarding Geordan needing to sign players who can play his game were a little off the mark. Yes he does need his own team but suggesting our predicament is entirely due to the current players being unable to implement Geordan's style makes it sound derogatory to his coaching abilities.
I'm not cynical just experienced

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Re: New Coach?

Post by DingDong » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:31 pm

Johnthegriff gives a level headed and pragmatic response to the current situation, but I believe he misses two key factors. One is the appalling recruitment over recent years which has left us devoid of suitable replacements for injured/international players. This was highlighted in starting a 19year old travelling reserve at FB for his debut, and starting a recently returned 4th choice SH. That is mainly down to Ged Glynn.

The second factor is Murphy's effect on our playing style and attacking performance as a whole. This has yet to show any significant and positive sign of improvement despite being in charge for 6 months. If Phil Blake can straight away change a teams mindset and improve their defence, even with all the absentees, how come Murphy can't show some sort of improvement after 6 months?

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Re: New Coach?

Post by JP14 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:57 pm

Having being coached by Stanko in one of the rugby camps in the past I can vouch that few in the game dedicate so much time and passion to the scrum, BFG’s point is correct that Cole et tout were good scrummagers beforehand however under Stanko they have improved immeasurably, look at Ma’afu! His coaching is way more technical then others, therefore he should deserve all the appraise he gets.
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Re: New Coach?

Post by Dangerous4 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:35 pm

Stanko deserves much credit, but there are certainly issues in the back five regarding what I see is a severe lack of interest, Williams being profoundly so. He is leaving us, and it shows.

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