Nigel Owens

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Chobbsy
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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by Chobbsy » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:53 am

Smudge wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:49 pm
Chobsy wrote:-
[Sorry that is just not true/quote]

I'm afraid it is mate.
There has been an active PR machine working on his reputation during the last few years and you see plenty of
support in the press etc., but you can't hide the facts. His obvious inconstances are bad enough but when they favour one side you can only draw one conclusion.
I am not new to the scene and I have had reason to curse him for years.

No, it's not blind prejudice but I always know he will stuff us, one way or the other.
The team lost the match not the ref
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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by tigerssteve » Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:38 pm

Chobbsy wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:41 pm
Smudge wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:02 pm
He has always been a poor and clearly biased referee. I remember him robbing us on loads of occasions in the past going back years. The odd wrong decision can be explained as a "bad day at the office" or "he is only human" but there is a long standing pattern that clearly indicates his bias, against English clubs in general and Tigers in particular.
Sorry that is just not true
Total rubbish. Like all officials and players he makes mistakes but to accuse him of cheating, which your comments do, is outrageous. On Sunday he had a dodgy game. As others have said, his positioning was very off. He blocked Whites pass options on several occasions, one of which ended up with us being penalised. It was a poor performance but in no way was it dishonest.

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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by Smudge » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:51 pm

Steve wrote :-
Total rubbish. Like all officials and players he makes mistakes but to accuse him of cheating, which your comments do, is outrageous. On Sunday he had a dodgy game. As others have said, his positioning was very off. He blocked Whites pass options on several occasions, one of which ended up with us being penalised. It was a poor performance but in no way was it dishonest.

In your opinion. It is the opinion of many, even on this forum, that his poor refereeing cost us. Even Pittbull has commented on the gross difference between the number of penalties given against each side.
As I have already stated down the theme, it is not a one off, he has form. Long form covering many years.
It may seem ludicrous to accuse any official of bias but that doesn't stand as truth or take into account human prejudices, whether conscious or unconsciously held. If it was only me that has this opinion, you could have some gravitas in your opinion but that so many have experienced his inconsistency and perceived bias over a lot of years is telling!
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mikeg
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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by mikeg » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:23 pm

Its no good blaming Owens whatever ref was on the pitch it would have been the same result it was our poor defending again that lost us the game : mikeg

Wayne Richardson Fan Club
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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:40 pm

For all of you lambasting Owens, I'm sure you will all be happy Clancy is "in charge" this weekend :smt005
To win is not as important as playing with style!

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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by Scott1 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:59 pm

Could've been worse,could've been Lacey!

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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by tigerssteve » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:15 pm

Smudge wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:51 pm
Steve wrote :-
Total rubbish. Like all officials and players he makes mistakes but to accuse him of cheating, which your comments do, is outrageous. On Sunday he had a dodgy game. As others have said, his positioning was very off. He blocked Whites pass options on several occasions, one of which ended up with us being penalised. It was a poor performance but in no way was it dishonest.

In your opinion. It is the opinion of many, even on this forum, that his poor refereeing cost us. Even Pittbull has commented on the gross difference between the number of penalties given against each side.
As I have already stated down the theme, it is not a one off, he has form. Long form covering many years.
It may seem ludicrous to accuse any official of bias but that doesn't stand as truth or take into account human prejudices, whether conscious or unconsciously held. If it was only me that has this opinion, you could have some gravitas in your opinion but that so many have experienced his inconsistency and perceived bias over a lot of years is telling!
Just because several people hold an opinion, doesn't make it right! I didn't deny that some of his decisions cost us; they did, though probably not the match. There are at least as many posts who disagree, and please don't try to play the "lot of years" card. I've been standing/sitting at Welford Road since 1968. Conspiracy theories are seldom correct. If your claim held water, then Tigers, the RFU and "any English club" would certainly have sorted it by now. Sorry but bad games do not a conspiracy make.

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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by Smudge » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:13 am

Only 1968? Your opinion, that's all nothing more.
I was once party to a discussion by RFU officials, club and players representatives with the gambling industry with the Met. concerning the security of the game and the possibility to influence it for betting or other corrupt purposes.
There were several who opined that it would be very easy for a referee to fix a match, given the lottery at breakdowns and scrums. To give an equal number of penalties to both sides but only in kickable positions to one side would be a good way to disguise it. (But there were others). At that time it was thought that it was highly unlikely that a referee could be corrupt unless vast sums of money were involved or that members of their families were threatened with violence or kidnap. The in depth discussion finished by agreement that Union officials were of too high a calibre of men to ever be thought biased or corrupt in normal circumstances but did not rule it out entirely. It was resolved that the best policy was to exercise great care in the selection and promotion of officials but to remain vigilant at all times. Since then we have had more and closer TV coverage which ought to be good for the regulation of the game but in fact if the assessors of Saturdays game study the tape carefully, there was much wrong with the officiating. Is Owens now too big a cheese that he doesn't care about assessors or are they in awe of him? Can he now do no wrong in the game? One thing we do know is that an official can heavily influence the outcome of any game and for any reason or none.
We have to believe and trust that our officials are trustworthy and unbiased but as people often comment, they are still human beings, with all the frailties, foibles that brings. As with the defence of the realm, the only way you are safe is by constant vigilance, There is no place for complacency. In my personal view, a pattern of bias to or against a country or club should at least be cause for concern. Back in the fifties I received a piece of advice which has stood me in very good stead and it is this. "Never bet on anything that can talk"
A life long Tiger

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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by TigerCam » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:11 am

Unfortunately it is always how each ref (being a human) interprets the game? The yellow card given to Genge is a prime example in that the same offence was committed (as highlighted by the commentary team) in another match yet it was not deemed to be an offence worthy of a yellow card by the ref?

Having watched Nigel ref over many years, I have the greatest respect for the man as a human being; in his ability to ref and control the game. His interpretation of the game must be well known by all the players/coaches and I am sure that every team does intense homework on the ref's past efforts prior to a match, plus there is always the team brief by the ref prior to KO. How the game plays out does add another dimension? The only additional comment about Nigel I have is that he appears to be slowing down a bit? That may or may not be a factor in some of his decision making and become more reliant on the AJs?

No matter which sport it is there are always those, myself included that have the odd, maybe biased too, outburst with a decision. Nothing like a good dose of the 'one-eyed', 'rose-tinted'verbals when you are fully immersed in trying to get the Tigers over the winning line. I like everyone else, have the advantage of seeing the game from either above the pitch at a ground or on the TV where virtually every angle is covered.

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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by DingDong » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:57 am

To even imply that a ref in any top game today has the potential to be bias is so laughable, and also sounds so desperate from a sore losers point of view. I'd ask anyone who thinks this way to take a look at the pre-match and post patch protocol and independent analysis a referee and his organisation goes through EVERY single time, this includes involvement from the teams coaches fas well. In recent years, how many legal proceedings have there been to this cause? Smudge talks about interpretations, well so are they still interpretations from pundits, fans, coaches and journalists, who in my experience often get it wrong each and very game, both in incident and point of law. Then there's the 'experts' viewing a game with beer goggles from fifty metres away or in there comfort of their arm chair with a slo mo replay.

Owens explained his logic of the YC for Genge at the time, perfectly acceptable under that context, and the only surprise was Genge didn't get one earlier for pulling down the scrum which refs ought to be more strict about rather than resetting most of the time.

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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by teds » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:18 pm

Personally I think there will always be differences between referees. More familiarity with a particular referee by one team will mean that decisions will be biased in that team’s favour, as they can play to the referee. It’s not rocket science, and it’s got very little to do with dishonesty.

The best approach is to use a referee who is equally familiar to both teams. In the case of a match between a French team and an English team that should be a referee from the Celtic league, or even an SH country. I don’t think we can legislate for the fact that this french team had recruited a top level Celtic fly half, who would be more familiar with Owens positioning.

That said, Owens is often too confident in his own decisions. He cut his referring teeth without the benefits of real time assistance, which means his mistakes are more likely to affect the outcome. If instead of blowing up straight away he had asked his little helpers whether it was a knock on, Tigers still had a very good chance of scoring there.

I just hope todays junior refs already have audio links with their assistants and so are able to get into the right habits. This kit is now dirt cheap, but I suspect it’s only used at the higher levels. Refs have the hardest job in the sport, the focus has to be on helping them not kicking them when they foul up.

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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by BFG » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:32 pm

That's a great post teds!
I too think Owens overconfident, some think this as arrogance.
I don't enjoy watching games he is involved in, even from the touchline, talking to players like naughty little children and comments about other sports that he knows absolutely nothing about strikes me as possibly being arrogant.
I remember his comment this is not football, well anybody who has experienced the very top level players will tell you that they possess such extreme pace and trickery that sometimes it's impossible to not roll or dive after the slightest clip, and studs on the ankle bone can sodding well sting when travelling at that pace!
Owens should try running at full pelt (even with his little spare tyre) and see what happens when someone clips him!

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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by Smudge » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:42 pm

DingDong wrote :-
[quoteTo even imply that a ref in any top game today has the potential to be bias is so laughable, and also sounds so desperate from a sore losers point of view][/quote]

You are clearly living in wonderland like so many supporters who think they know it all. They used to say things like that about cricket, the ultimate game of fair play and honesty and look what has happened, ball tampering, match fixing and corrupt umpires. (Laughable?) Just not cricket old chap.
I have played scores of games when we knew the ref was against us, none more so than the Easter tours to South Wales when it was a given that the officials would not let you win. It was a joke at the PU afterwards that Dai the whistle was not going to let us prevail . Players knew when we were being screwed and it happed often. In those days we only played for pride and enjoyed the fun afterwards. You may not have been around when "boot money" was common. People like you didn't believe it happed. A corrupt practice which was in wide use around the game and not just in the first class game.(Laughable?) Now that clubs are spending seven million a year on playing staff alone, there is huge incentive to win, at all costs. Huge sums of money are bet on every game. Do you seriously believe that it is laughable that anyone may try and influence a game? Really?
The jolly old chaps who find it so unsporting to doubt the chap in the middle's neutrality amid accusations of sour grapes, need to get real. It may just be an anti English bias in some cases and very difficult to prove, but players know. We just know.
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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by JP14 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:03 pm

teds wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:18 pm
Personally I think there will always be differences between referees. More familiarity with a particular referee by one team will mean that decisions will be biased in that team’s favour, as they can play to the referee. It’s not rocket science, and it’s got very little to do with dishonesty.

The best approach is to use a referee who is equally familiar to both teams. In the case of a match between a French team and an English team that should be a referee from the Celtic league, or even an SH country. I don’t think we can legislate for the fact that this french team had recruited a top level Celtic fly half, who would be more familiar with Owens positioning.

That said, Owens is often too confident in his own decisions. He cut his referring teeth without the benefits of real time assistance, which means his mistakes are more likely to affect the outcome. If instead of blowing up straight away he had asked his little helpers whether it was a knock on, Tigers still had a very good chance of scoring there.

I just hope todays junior refs already have audio links with their assistants and so are able to get into the right habits. This kit is now dirt cheap, but I suspect it’s only used at the higher levels. Refs have the hardest job in the sport, the focus has to be on helping them not kicking them when they foul up.
Audio is used as early as County U14 Finals, to my knowledge, could be lower for private school competitions!
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Re: Nigel Owens

Post by biffer » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:49 pm

He's past it right enough. He was the best in the world at one point, no longer (and hasn't been for a few years). Not disappointed he's retiring after the RWC.

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