Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

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RagingBull
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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by RagingBull » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:19 pm

How exactly has Toomua put us back on the map?

teds
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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by teds » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:39 pm

RagingBull wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:19 pm
How exactly has Toomua put us back on the map?
Fair question. Though I am not clear if you agreed with the rest of the post.

Toomua came here when the club was in decline. He got back into his national side. Every time he is mentioned they say Matt Toomua who is playing his club rugby at Leicester.

For the next 10 years or so, people will be saying “Leicester ? That’s the club Matt Toomua played for isnt it?” You may be too young to remember but people used to say that about Joel Stransky, or Josh Kronfeld.

Does that help at all?






.

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by RagingBull » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:15 pm

I don’t agree with the rest of the post either.

I think that is a very romantisied view on a player who has played what

The club is still in decline what exactly has he done that has stopped it? Been involved in a few European thrashing’s himself and part of the Tigers squad that failed to make the play offs for the first time in a an age.

We have slowly started to turn things around (which is still very much up for debate) and he has played what 1 full game and 20 minutes? And in that full game we got embarrassed by Exeter.

I think it quite odd how you can compare him to two European winners (although it’s nice to be thought of as someone who could be too young to not know the reactions Stransky brought it is only around 13 years ago.

I bet that more people would think of Tuilagi and Leicester rather than toomua and Leicester.


I also not sure he is really at a level that Ford needs to aspire to compared to a Sexton. Ford in the right game plan (which is the case for most 10’s TBF) has been one of the best players this season.

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by Cardiff Tig » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:52 pm

It makes me wonder when there are suggestions that Eastmond is better than Toomua?!

It's also harsh to associate Toomua with the decline of the club - we could have had Barrett at 10 last season and still been rubbish, the team was just terrible too many times for individual players to do anything about it. Who knows how much worse we would have been without having some class in the 12 shirt.

I agree it's also a stretch to compare him to Stransky!

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by BFG » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:29 pm

The debate is kind of missing the point, which is he should be available for these November fixtures and it doesn't look like he will be.
Gloucester will likely be fighting for a semi-final place so we will see just how important the points share is at the seasons end.
Sarries might be there for the taking being weakened this month, but then so are Leicester.

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by teds » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:31 pm

RagingBull wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:15 pm
I don’t agree with the rest of the post either.
So I said
A- that Toomua came when the club was in decline
B - that he is a well known player, who gets the name of Leicester tigers out there, puts us on the map for an international audience who might not know where Leicester is, and presents the club in a positive light.
C - that he has contributed to the happy vibe which seems new to me
D - that players such as Hardwick and Ford are inspired by him (Ford has said as much)
E - that he could slot in to replace either Ford or Eastmond both of whom are very good.

Are you sure you disagree with all of that?

I might agree with you that some folk are over critical of Crane, but I don’t agree that my view of Toomua is romanticised, just trying to stick to observations which I have now enumerated hopefully more clearly for you.

The net for me, is Toomua’s move to Tigers has been a positive. I’d like to see him stay for longer but life doesn’t always pan out the way we expect.

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by RagingBull » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:10 am

1 - agree with that although I did read it as implying that the club stopped being in a decline. (So that’s my bad soft misreading it)
2 - Well known in rugby circles buyback the backup Aussie 10/12 isn’t exactly a big name in putting a team on the map like say a Carter etc would.
3 - very much disagree with seems like a good guy but when exactly would you say the clubs good mood has happened becuase the guy has been here 2 seasons and in those two seasons 3 coaches have gone with a fair amount of unhappy players doesn’t seem a very happy camp to me, any change now is prob down to Murphy.
4 - and Toomua has said that Ford has inspired him it’s something players tend to say better players do help players to raise their game but IMO ford is a better 10 than Toomua so not sure what he would aspire too.
5 - true although him missing during the period when a ford is missing for the AI’s kind of defeats that point, no point having a player as cover if he can’t cover when the number 1 choice isn’t here.

Overall Toomua has played 23 games in his two and a bit years here as a big marquee signing personally I don’t see it as being a net gain really, people will remember him fondly but in 10 years time he won’t be in many list for best Tigers 10.

teds
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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by teds » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:16 am

RagingBull wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:15 pm
I think it quite odd how you can compare him to two European winners (although it’s nice to be thought of as someone who could be too young to not know the reactions Stransky brought it is only around 13 years ago.
I didn’t think a Stransky was a European winner. Surely he came here just after the 95 World Cup, which would make it over 20 years ago? You have made me wonder if I still have a VHS of the final we lost against Brive in 97. Maybe it’s on YouTube I quite fancy watching that now the disappointment has started to wear off.

FWIW the comparison was only intended to spell out what I meant by “putting us on the map”, but it’s an interesting comparison. From my memory, Stransky would win on the kicking and stepping front, Toomua wins on the passing and tackling. Different eras of course, but a fun comparison.

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by teds » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:40 am

RagingBull wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:10 am
1 - agree with that although I did read it as implying that the club stopped being in a decline. (So that’s my bad soft misreading it)
2 - Well known in rugby circles buyback the backup Aussie 10/12 isn’t exactly a big name in putting a team on the map like say a Carter etc would.
3 - very much disagree with seems like a good guy but when exactly would you say the clubs good mood has happened becuase the guy has been here 2 seasons and in those two seasons 3 coaches have gone with a fair amount of unhappy players doesn’t seem a very happy camp to me, any change now is prob down to Murphy.
4 - and Toomua has said that Ford has inspired him it’s something players tend to say better players do help players to raise their game but IMO ford is a better 10 than Toomua so not sure what he would aspire too.
5 - true although him missing during the period when a ford is missing for the AI’s kind of defeats that point, no point having a player as cover if he can’t cover when the number 1 choice isn’t here.

Overall Toomua has played 23 games in his two and a bit years here as a big marquee signing personally I don’t see it as being a net gain really, people will remember him fondly but in 10 years time he won’t be in many list for best Tigers 10.
1. It seems to me the clubs decline has slowed. I don’t expect us to end the season below 5th.

2. No he’s not a Dan Carter, but every time his name will come up in internationals every weekend. It’s good marketing. Also for Southern Hemisphere players who don’t make the cut for the World Cup they will have the name of Leicester in mind. It’s like free almost subliminal advertising.

3. The mood really seems to have picked up, and you know what it seems to annoy people when Tigers players are still smiling at the end of games even when they lose.

For me Toomua has been a positive influence - witness childish interview he did with Bateman the other day - but I’d certainly concede the change in management might be a big factor.

I have only met him briefly, but he seemed very polite and amiable. I am surprised you dont like him.

4. Yes I agree sometimes players pay fatuous compliments, So it’s hard to tell. We clearly disagree and will have to wait for the biographies.

5. We need Toomua most at the business end of the season. Yes it would be good to have Toomua around while Ford is being rested during the AIs, but it’s only the AW-W cup.

It’s clear we agree that we would like him to have been here full time as a marquee player, but we disagree over whether on balance Tigers would have been better of with or without him as Marquee, given his injuries and call ups. I can live with that disagreement and I suspect you can too.

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by BengalTiger » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:23 am

The problem is a poor contract in the first place, I cannot blame the player the contract offered should have foreseen this possibility with an appropriate penalty for making himself available for Australia, then we would all see the cost for the player, but having his cake and eating it is an appropriate title for this thread, this is nothing about him personality but we are supposed to be a business and as on many occasions, it is the board who should be reaping the opprobrium here not the player!

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by Goshengareth » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:47 am

Toomua vs Crane elements of this discussion definitely brought a smile to my face. I do find this desire to sign outstanding players, but then moan when they play away, perplexing. Crane played so much cos no other club would sign him and England knew he was nowhere near the required level.

It's all done. Let's just cross our fingers and hope Matt is fit and raring to go for the last 6 months of the season. Mixing him, Manu, Ford and Eastmond in our 10/12/13 with May, TV, Holmes out the back is an exciting prospect.

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by Cardiff Tig » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:56 am

BengalTiger wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:23 am
The problem is a poor contract in the first place, I cannot blame the player the contract offered should have foreseen this possibility with an appropriate penalty for making himself available for Australia
If Tigers start to punish players for being asked to play for their country then the club will struggle to recruit any players.

Tigers signed a 28 year old current international. They knew this could happen, Aus could have changed their selection policy at any time after signing him which Tigers have no control over.

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by johnthegriff » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:45 am

I am pretty certain IRB rules do not permit contracts that prevent a player turning out for his country if selected.

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by Tigerbeat » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:49 am

Clubs need to celebrate and embrace players that are called up to play for their countries. They are chosen for a reason, they are seen to be quality. If clubs put restrictions on players with regards to representing their countries, the club game will suffer.
Never say never.....things can change which cannot be foreseen....pleased for Matt but at the same time disappointed for Tigers. Not his fault that he has been selected to represent Australia
SUPPORT THE MATT HAMPSON TRUST
www.matthampson.co.uk

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Re: Toomua Call Up - Cake and Eat IT

Post by BFG » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:21 am

johnthegriff wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:45 am
I am pretty certain IRB rules do not permit contracts that prevent a player turning out for his country if selected.
Nor should they, and as another poster wrote, more players becoming internationals is a good thing.
A side issue but I'm not that sure becoming an England international is a sign of how well you are playing under Mr Jones!
The Toomua situation is understandable, but I do think that playing in the Rugby Championship, November tests plus early release from a contract is having his cake and eating it.
The whole situation would've been a bit easier to digest were it only two out of those three situations, the November tests put aside for the club in particular in my opinion.
I believe Gloucester and Sarries are likely to have their South African players available.
These points will prove critical to making the play offs!
It's not all what we thought it would be when the dotted line was signed!

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