Premiership Rugby Cup - Tigers vs Worcester

[h's dad]

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The 3 National leagues that he played for were mentioned. I have spoken to players that played with in those sides and he was not highly rated at all.
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No disagreement but from conversations with possibly the same players I have found that they very rarely rate anybody on loan to them from senior clubs, whether they go on to greater things or not.

[Mark62]

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The 3 National leagues that he played for were mentioned. I have spoken to players that played with in those sides and he was not highly rated at all.
...

No disagreement but from conversations with possibly the same players I have found that they very rarely rate anybody on loan to them from senior clubs, whether they go on to greater things or not.

Very true, though Charlie Thacker was rated certainly at South and he appears to be going backwards at Tigers unless he’s injured

[JP14]

I think Thacker is fit ot at least working back to fitness. Commenting on whether he is going backwards, I don’t know really I only saw him play vs Gloucester and Castres.

[sam16111986]

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The 3 National leagues that he played for were mentioned. I have spoken to players that played with in those sides and he was not highly rated at all.
...

No disagreement but from conversations with possibly the same players I have found that they very rarely rate anybody on loan to them from senior clubs, whether they go on to greater things or not.

Very true, though Charlie Thacker was rated certainly at South and he appears to be going backwards at Tigers unless he’s injured

Dual reg loan at Nottingham. No idea how he's getting on there or whether he's fit or not.

[BFG]

Good to hear that people who attended the match thought Freddie T did well and I hope he continues.

I know JP14 was having a little dig, and fair enough.
My issues with him are more historical as to why he is where he is now.
At the age of 17 he was a very fat, very unfit, not very good prop. Unless Cockerill could see into the future there is no way that he could have known how he would develop and the fact that in 4 years he would be what some people feel is a promising number 8.
It is fact that at that time some promising players lost academy contracts and he was given one on the basis of his surname. With his abilities at that time no one would have given a second thought had he not been a Tuilagi.
The 3 National leagues that he played for were mentioned. I have spoken to players that played with in those sides and he was not highly rated at all.
I hope he continues to improve but for me the highest level he will achieve is Championship.

Which promising players missed out?
Who are these players who did not highly rate him?
It's all subjective, and particularly when people have their own interests to project or protect!
There are players in the National Leagues who quite frankly aren't very good, and think that they are, and with more front than Blackpool!
I don't recall anyone who was so promising that they could complain and a club would be stupid not to recognise the name in this case!
A bit of realism wouldn't go a miss!

[johnthegriff]

The players he played with like Mark62 made judgements on an immature kid playing a wrong position, It is possible that the coaches involved saw something in the young Fred that others did not, it is also possible that knowledge of his family history helped. What is unlikely is that any of is Fred's fault, Mark may be right Fred might turn out to be a Championship quality player. That is something that applies to many academy products and is actually better than most, he may also given time to develop become a Premiership eight he is still quite immature, time will tell many forwards do not blossom until their mid twenties.

[Mark62]

Unfortunately BFG post has come up again but I will answer it.

I was coaching at the same age group as young Tuilagi in Leicester at that time. Even his team mates at Hinckley and school will not disagree with my assessment of his size and ability. Was he anywhere near county selection no he wasn’t, had he even been mentioned in terms of an academy slot no he hadn’t.
My own son who was an average club player at best propped against him in an u16 county plate final giving away at least 6 stone and more than held his own.

I am not prepared to give any names but there were a number of local players who had been in the academy since the age of 15 who have gone on to play level 3 or 4 whose contracts were cut at 17, as is the way these days, but were certainly showing considerably more promise at that age, and given the time and resources that have been given to Freddie would have developed at least as far.

So I have now put my comments in context. Let us hope BFG can do the same though I’m not holding my breath

[Mark62]

The players he played with like Mark62 made judgements on an immature kid playing a wrong position, It is possible that the coaches involved saw something in the young Fred that others did not, it is also possible that knowledge of his family history helped. What is unlikely is that any of is Fred's fault, Mark may be right Fred might turn out to be a Championship quality player. That is something that applies to many academy products and is actually better than most, he may also given time to develop become a Premiership eight he is still quite immature, time will tell many forwards do not blossom until their mid twenties.

The point I am making is that had his Surname not been Tuilagi the player he was at that time would not have been given the resources and opportunity he was. I’m not saying it was his fault he was given an opportunity and grabbed it. That opportunity was engineered by his Father and tigers coaches.
You say forwards don’t mature till their mid twenties how many of England’s current forward squad played for their country in their late teens early 20s

[BFG]

Unfortunately BFG post has come up again but I will answer it.

I was coaching at the same age group as young Tuilagi in Leicester at that time. Even his team mates at Hinckley and school will not disagree with my assessment of his size and ability. Was he anywhere near county selection no he wasn’t, had he even been mentioned in terms of an academy slot no he hadn’t.
My own son who was an average club player at best propped against him in an u16 county plate final giving away at least 6 stone and more than held his own.

I am not prepared to give any names but there were a number of local players who had been in the academy since the age of 15 who have gone on to play level 3 or 4 whose contracts were cut at 17, as is the way these days, but were certainly showing considerably more promise at that age, and given the time and resources that have been given to Freddie would have developed at least as far.

So I have now put my comments in context. Let us hope BFG can do the same though I’m not holding my breath

The junior academy has hundreds of boys each year competing for just a few places, all with the potential to develop at different rates and to different levels.
In my experience the academy was never a problem, they tried to keep it real and educate boys to try and build a future of some sort.
If you listened to what you were told properly and kept sight of the bigger picture then it was all spelled out to everyone at the very beginning, the trouble is many are so focused on the dream that they don't listen!
It was parents and coaches with community cliques and club affiliations taken into county who wormed their way into the elite process with agendas and unrealistic expectations that caused problems.
Taking boys on full time is a risky process, time spent trying to reach the level and injuries affect their entire future and a club has to take every care and consideration that it can.
You might think taking Fred was unfair but there is so much more to consider and if he doesn't make it here then the family network will find other opportunities.
No-one wants young lads left on the scrap heap in life, development is sometimes more than just the rugby.
Besides all this there is nothing to stop a quality 21 year old carving his own path and finding his way to the top if good enough, I'm pretty sure a club won't ignore another potential Genge.

[Mark62]

For once BFG I agree with everything you say particularly with regard to parents and aspirations. Unfortunately the rugby academy process has become like the football one and equally as brutal..

I think we have all done this to death now and everybody makes valid points.
I will leave with thought and say no more. Try explaining to talented rugby mad 17 year old why he has not been given a new contract and yet someone else has based almost entirely on his family connections and Surname

[jgriffin]

For once BFG I agree with everything you say particularly with regard to parents and aspirations. Unfortunately the rugby academy process has become like the football one and equally as brutal..

I think we have all done this to death now and everybody makes valid points.
I will leave with thought and say no more. Try explaining to talented rugby mad 17 year old why he has not been given a new contract and yet someone else has based almost entirely on his family connections and Surname

I have a 35 year old who has a brilliant career outside rugby, but as a 16 yr old decided not to progress to Tigers Academy as he had had enough of the connected, the blazers and lesser talents getting team places or in the case of Wales, probably not being Welsh enough (and then being unlucky enough to go on Shoguns roster just before they folded). He is still mates with his old team, a couple of who had similar experiences.

[JP14]

Unfortunately for Fred, he’s only been playing 2/3 seasons as a Number 8, whilst playing as prop he most likely didn’t recieve the ball from a kick to then run forward and try and bash through your opponent. It’s taken me 4/5 seasons to run into contact at full speed (I play in the second row which is different to Tuilagi but you can still apply the same principal for ballcarrying) so we have to be patient with Fred Jr as he’s clearly not fully confident yet and some posters on the forum aren’t doing him any favours in that regard.

Once he’s made a few big carries he will be probably get into his stride a bit more.

[Mark62]

Unfortunately for Fred, he’s only been playing 2/3 seasons as a Number 8, whilst playing as prop he most likely didn’t recieve the ball from a kick to then run forward and try and bash through your opponent. It’s taken me 4/5 seasons to run into contact at full speed (I play in the second row which is different to Tuilagi but you can still apply the same principal for ballcarrying) so we have to be patient with Fred Jr as he’s clearly not fully confident yet and some posters on the forum aren’t doing him any favours in that regard.

Once he’s made a few big carries he will be probably get into his stride a bit more.

Mate as a prop he physically couldn’t run at more than a jog he was that large. To put that in context at the age of 18 the only player heavier than him at the club was Logo
As you say time will tell but I wish people would stop making excuses for him.

[JP14]

Then you’re only reinforcing my point.

[LE18]

Unfortunately for Fred, he’s only been playing 2/3 seasons as a Number 8, whilst playing as prop he most likely didn’t recieve the ball from a kick to then run forward and try and bash through your opponent. It’s taken me 4/5 seasons to run into contact at full speed (I play in the second row which is different to Tuilagi but you can still apply the same principal for ballcarrying) so we have to be patient with Fred Jr as he’s clearly not fully confident yet and some posters on the forum aren’t doing him any favours in that regard.

Once he’s made a few big carries he will be probably get into his stride a bit more.

Mate as a prop he physically couldn’t run at more than a jog he was that large. To put that in context at the age of 18 the only player heavier than him at the club was Logo
As you say time will tell but I wish people would stop making excuses for him.

Mark have you watched him in last couple of games? In his last game he showed real progress, he looks as though he has lost a huge amount of weight and he could run as well as any forward. He has changed, not saying he is great, but there is something there! Tonight v Sale we were light weight in the scrum, especially 2nd half, Fred would have added a bit of bulk! Guy Thomson is a great 6 player, but looks light when he has to play 8. I originally thought like you!