A fair analysis?

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JP14
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A fair analysis?

Post by JP14 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:03 pm

"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

AusTiger
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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by AusTiger » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:43 am

In general probably not far off. I'd say a large part of the down fall came from depowering our forwards to suit the SH version of the game instead of keeping to the forward power game that Exeter is now doing so well.

Also missed some fact re U20s World cup, he reckoned there was nobody from Tigers in any squad but if my memory serves there was White, Hardwick, Olowofela, Lewis, Heys, Reffell, Lewis and Kerr.

I do like that chaps videos, he has an excellent historic blooper database.

JP14
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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by JP14 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 am

I think he was referring to the previous championship in 2017.
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

Hot_Charlie
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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by Hot_Charlie » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:35 am

JP14 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:39 am
I think he was referring to the previous championship in 2017.
Will Evans was in the 2017 squad.

Incidentally both Jacob Umaga (once of this parish) and Sam Aspland-Robinson (now of this parish) both played too. :smt001

Leicestertinytiger
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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:50 am

Some things he gets right regarding the Mauger appointment, lack of forwards recruitment and the fly half debacle.

But he does miss out on how many young players we have coming through now into the senior squad who are Tigers academy.

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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by ellis9 » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:11 am

AusTiger wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:43 am
In general probably not far off. I'd say a large part of the down fall came from depowering our forwards to suit the SH version of the game instead of keeping to the forward power game that Exeter is now doing so well.

Also missed some fact re U20s World cup, he reckoned there was nobody from Tigers in any squad but if my memory serves there was White, Hardwick, Olowofela, Lewis, Heys, Reffell, Lewis and Kerr.

I do like that chaps videos, he has an excellent historic blooper database.
Yes I seem to remember someone on here at the time saying that trying to play a more Southern Hemisphere way won't win us trophies.

It's proven to be a correct statement.

Now, who was it? :smt017

voice of the crumbie
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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by voice of the crumbie » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:13 am

Ironic, isn't it that Exeter the team that now dominates via its forwards pushed themselves to the heights they now attain by adding 3 ex Leicester forwards (Waldrom, Salvi, and Parling) to locally grown talent. They have continued to develop their identity whilst Tigers under Mauger and O'Connor lost theirs.

With the pack we now have we are beginning, under Murphy, to rediscover our old strengths. The good news is that we now have a backline capable of exploiting the forward power we are developing. Yes there is still much to work on but the last 20 minutes versus Scarlets showed what we can be capable of. The players and coaches now have to tighten up the weak areas and ensure enough conistency to make performances like that last 20 minutes the norm rather than the exception. From what I have seen under Murphy so far I have more confidence than I have had for a number of seasons that we can get to where we want and ought to be.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by jgriffin » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:39 am

ellis9 wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:11 am
AusTiger wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:43 am
In general probably not far off. I'd say a large part of the down fall came from depowering our forwards to suit the SH version of the game instead of keeping to the forward power game that Exeter is now doing so well.

Also missed some fact re U20s World cup, he reckoned there was nobody from Tigers in any squad but if my memory serves there was White, Hardwick, Olowofela, Lewis, Heys, Reffell, Lewis and Kerr.

I do like that chaps videos, he has an excellent historic blooper database.
Yes I seem to remember someone on here at the time saying that trying to play a more Southern Hemisphere way won't win us trophies.

It's proven to be a correct statement.

Now, who was it? :smt017
All of us who thought Mauger was a major error. Some started the worry when MOC was first here!
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.

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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by BengalTiger » Tue Oct 23, 2018 11:04 am

The fall began when we were winning and many on here said it was boring and we want more excitement, the board must have thought so to, so they said lets not focus all our spending on forwards but on some shiny new go faster backs!

As always be careful what you wish for.

Mauger was not a mistake as such, the thinking behind his appointment and the undermining of the DOR because of that faulty thinking was the problem.

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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by johnthegriff » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:45 pm

A number of facts wrong in the analysis but it is true we did depart from the Leicester way, Rugby has not changed that much, you still need the ball to win and forwards are the guys that get you the ball. The three that went to Exeter have all finished their Premiership careers, Waldrom left for more money a longer contract and more game time, Salvi was leaving for France, changed his mind after we had agreed to sign Brendan O Connor so went to Chiefs, Parling for me the greatest loss had struggled with fitness meeting the demands of Tigers and England, ironically his move to Exeter coincided with his non selection by England. We now have a decent balanced squad with youngsters pressing for a starting position and even younger players lining up behind them. The guy is right, patience is needed but we are fans and we want success every season, my definition of success this years is playing in semi-finals and at least two Academy products breaking through to establish themselves in the match day squad. Ideally though I want better than that, I want a trophy although I understand I may have to wait to the following season, I don't want to wait, I lack patience because I am a fan.

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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:00 pm

johnthegriff wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:45 pm
A number of facts wrong in the analysis but it is true we did depart from the Leicester way, Rugby has not changed that much, you still need the ball to win and forwards are the guys that get you the ball. The three that went to Exeter have all finished their Premiership careers, Waldrom left for more money a longer contract and more game time, Salvi was leaving for France, changed his mind after we had agreed to sign Brendan O Connor so went to Chiefs, Parling for me the greatest loss had struggled with fitness meeting the demands of Tigers and England, ironically his move to Exeter coincided with his non selection by England. We now have a decent balanced squad with youngsters pressing for a starting position and even younger players lining up behind them. The guy is right, patience is needed but we are fans and we want success every season, my definition of success this years is playing in semi-finals and at least two Academy products breaking through to establish themselves in the match day squad. Ideally though I want better than that, I want a trophy although I understand I may have to wait to the following season, I don't want to wait, I lack patience because I am a fan.
I feel that maybe finishing in the top 4 this year may be too much a stretch for the squad we have, although finishing top 6 would be no means a disaster. Guranteed revenue from the European Cup secured and a place in the competition is all we realistically need.

For me success this year would be giving the likes of Kerr, Heyes, Lewis, Reffell, Evans, White, Hardwick, Worth and Olowofela serious game time so next year they can be credible replacements to the starting 23.

Also to allow that to happen we will probably need to let the likes of Cortes, Fitzgerald and Mapapalangi go and trust the younger players. This would also free up some cap. I feel like the squad should reflect the likes of Exeter and Saracens, primarily made up of academy products with a sprinkling of star imports. For example we don’t Mapapalangi who hardly ever plays when Lewis and Reffell can cover his spot.

In this regards I think Murphy is the right man and on the right track. He seems to have identified this and is giving the younger players coming up premiership exposure which will only benefit us in the long run. Plus I imagine the squad will be rebalanced to be more forwards orientated next year, with rumours of Toomua marquee spot going to a lock.

Granted looking back with hindsight letting Waldrom, Parling and Salvi all go to Exeter was a mistake. Parling was massive for them in the knock out games. Same with Goneva going to Newcastle. But hopefully we have learned from them and won’t be making the again.

We also don’t want the same squad churn as the last few seasons. We know Toomua is going but I’m glad the likes of Holmes is staying. We don’t want wholesale changes every year and we can’t build any consistency. The best teams also have the most settled squads.

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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by BFG » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:26 pm

It's all being overdone in analysis in my opinion.
Cockers had a very tough job on his hands with the required evolution of a very successful squad of players of which some retired and some moved on.
He had the tools but an unprecedented amount of injuries put a spanner in the works, it's rumoured that he wanted extra quality brought in up front and that was refused, he was made to gamble on more project players and possibly that was the only option within the salary cap, but understandably he found it very difficult to combine youth with those project players but he did well to keep afloat for so long in my opinion.
Then enter the Mauger debacle, errors are often compounded by more errors.
It's a bit healthier currently and easier to give the youth some time when your best players are fit and firing to win more matches for you, but Leicester can't settle yet as other clubs are also on the move up and Sarries aren't going anywhere soon.
I don't know how strong the Leicester depth is in comparison to the competition but I'm looking at the Worcester youth and a few others and it looks very strong.
I guess we will find out for sure sometime over the next few years!

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Re: A fair analysis?

Post by Richardfje » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:13 pm

The video said our squad didn't have enough depth of 1st team quality players and then went on to say there is not enough money being pumped into the club by other reasons and when you look at it the clubs with more money that he said were saracens wasps and exeter who seem to dominate the premiership now a days which is probably why we can't keep up. Their money does always go on marque players but the money allows them to have a huge amount of first team quality depth which we are lacking so maybe we need to not spend all of the resources we have on huge 1 million pound contracts like what is rumoured to be spent on Etzebeth but split it up and spend it on a solid first team quality players like we did on Eastmond and build a squad with depth as signing etzebeth will not fix all our problems.

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