How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

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Traveller
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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by Traveller » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:07 pm

If Petrenko can conduct the entire Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra solo and Rattle the London Symphony Orchestra. How does guru Bakewell spend his time? Boris does the scrum. Brett the defence. Murphy the attack. Bakewell seems to be left with a non functioning line out (maul) and breakdown (adequate). Is it a job? If it is, it's a job being done poorly because he's been at Tigers for a year and performance in his exceptionally narrow area of responsibility is substandard. Just like Cohen and Glynn, though, quality of performance doesn't seem to matter any more.

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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by kend » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:03 pm

Traveller wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:07 pm
If Petrenko can conduct the entire Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra solo and Rattle the London Symphony Orchestra. How does guru Bakewell spend his time? Boris does the scrum. Brett the defence. Murphy the attack. Bakewell seems to be left with a non functioning line out (maul) and breakdown (adequate). Is it a job? If it is, it's a job being done poorly because he's been at Tigers for a year and performance in his exceptionally narrow area of responsibility is substandard. Just like Cohen and Glynn, though, quality of performance doesn't seem to matter any more.
If the LO were diabolical all the time, it would be relatively easy to diagnose and address. But it isn't; the lineout percentage for the saints game was 92% (as opposed to 66% in the Ulster game). The issue is the LO is failing at critical moments which (IMHO) is indicative of a team low on confidence and therefore susceptible to pressure.

I hazard a guess that the LO is working perfectly in coaching sessions. The habits of the training pitch aren't surviving the pressure and contact with the opposition.

Time and a period of consistency in coaching & tactics will fix it.

No idea what's going on with the driving maul though......

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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by BFG » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:24 pm

The maul is susceptible to the relative individual strengths and techniques of the opposition.
It only takes one really outstanding maul defender to spoil and most teams have at least one and in some cases more.
Likewise the line out is the quality of consistency and pressure also plays a part in finding out just how good you are in my opinion, you can't replicate a top level match scenario without the required depth of quality.
If Leicester were to train regularly against other top level teams then match preparation would be of a much higher standard.
The scrum is a bit of a certainty in coaching terms in my opinion as you could have Fred Flinstone coaching it and it'd be decent with Cole amongst it, his outstanding ability to lock out provides a unique platform and a very high training standard, as a result Leicester's loose heads tend to do very well on match days.
Failure to prepare is preparation to fail!

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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by Chobbsy » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:57 pm

Darc Tiger wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:26 pm
I can't remember the last time we had a solid, functioning lineout unit. No matter the hooker, no matter the jumping unit.

What has the club done to rectify this? I'm on the outside, but I can't point to anything.

Boris has done wonders with our scrum. Surely we can find a specialist to tidy up our lineout?

I absolutely fed up with our lineout being an embarrassment. Its unacceptable, and its cost us an unthinkable amount of points.

Something has to change.
Ben Kay was the line out Maestro, you would think in his position at the club he would be able to offer some advice?
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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by voice of the crumbie » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:07 pm

kend wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:03 pm
Traveller wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:07 pm
If Petrenko can conduct the entire Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra solo and Rattle the London Symphony Orchestra. How does guru Bakewell spend his time? Boris does the scrum. Brett the defence. Murphy the attack. Bakewell seems to be left with a non functioning line out (maul) and breakdown (adequate). Is it a job? If it is, it's a job being done poorly because he's been at Tigers for a year and performance in his exceptionally narrow area of responsibility is substandard. Just like Cohen and Glynn, though, quality of performance doesn't seem to matter any more.
If the LO were diabolical all the time, it would be relatively easy to diagnose and address. But it isn't; the lineout percentage for the saints game was 92% (as opposed to 66% in the Ulster game). The issue is the LO is failing at critical moments which (IMHO) is indicative of a team low on confidence and therefore susceptible to pressure.

I hazard a guess that the LO is working perfectly in coaching sessions. The habits of the training pitch aren't surviving the pressure and contact with the opposition.

Time and a period of consistency in coaching & tactics will fix it.

No idea what's going on with the driving maul though......
I was thinking along the same lines kend. Your post saved me having to write it all out. I think the driving maul attack and defence is suffering from similar problems to the lineout.

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned low confidence. I was considering the performance against Ulster and came to the conclusion that their quick try in the 2nd half caused the all too familiar demons of recent times to resurface. I imagine a scenario of going in at half time knowing that we had failed to convert a number of good chances in their 22. We should have gone in at least 10 nil up. Especially after managing Ford's sin-binning extremely well. That would have been playing on the players' minds. Ulster scored quickly and then but for a forward pass would have had another try within a couple of minutes. Enter nagging doubt resulting in missed tackles, dropped balls, turnovers, knock ons, failure to convert good attacking chances. By the time the team had pulled themselves out of this mindset (the last 10 minutes) the game was gone. They picked themselves up enough to get Manu's try and come close to stealing a losing bonus at the death.

As you say it will take time and a consistent approach to put things right.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by Wayne Richardson Fan Club » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:40 pm

Benedict should be consulted, if he has already it hasn't worked!! Poor throws have been the issue at times, we should get Mr Parling back, he is Mr Lineout.
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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by drc_007 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:57 pm

It was interesting to watch Saracens line out, despite losing several forwards to injuries and having to reshuffle they maintained 100% success. With a well-drilled squad it should not matter which set of forwards are on the field you should always be favourite to win your own throw.

Teams now target the front of the line out when Youngs throws since they know he is unreliable when throwing long.

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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by chappie » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:58 pm

I agree with most of what’s been said, OTY is not a top quality hooker and I would suggest we have not had a decent one since Kayser left! As for the second row I think Spencer will prove to be a success with Williams as his partner, gone are the days of having options in our lineout as we don’t have the likes of a Moody, Croft Johnson and Kay who all gave great options and remember we had West and Cockers who were both great at the lineout. If what I have been reading is true it seems like the BOD have finally awoken and seen the light to invest in some top quality front five beef😀
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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by Ian Cant » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:03 pm

Fans cannot have it both ways as we got rid of our best lineout thrower: Thacker. Some on here bemoaned him not being strong enough in the scrum but Sarries saw the worth of having Brit’s in their pack, like Thacker he wasn’t a brilliant thrower but his dynamism was worth far more. With a mobile hooker defences have to think differently: none of our hookers pose a threat.
George Chuter is still close by and could surely do a part time job with the lineout: he said a while ago that Tigers would seriously miss Ayerza because his lifting and skill set in the line out was excellent. I hope that when we get Spencer, Denton and Kitchen playing together that things will improve although I also think Williams has to be on the pitch as he really does have tha aggression and grunt we need. As for captaincy: time to be brave, take Tom Youngs to one side, explain we need a change to both enable him to fully concentrate on his role as a hooker, then give it to Spencer.
As for the driving maul, is Backy available? Such fond memories of those scores which nearly put the bookies out of business.

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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by BFG » Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:47 am

Leicester don't seem able to keep the man up for a long spell these days.
The longer you can keep a man up and especially at the back then the more room for error in the timing of the throw.
Spencer and Denton both look like quick jumpers, up and down quickly, that could be a big bonus defensively in stealing more ball in the future and I think it's an approach that Leicester should seriously look at.
Tigers could really do with a jumper of Croft's type, he could go up very quickly to steal but he was also one who could be kept up just a little longer on our own ball.
I'd assume it's one reason why MOC was keen to get Mafi back.
If you look at the proven high level line out options from the last Premiership winning squad and also beyond that then it has been quite limited by comparison recently.

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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by tripeandonions » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:45 pm

Darc Tiger wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 7:26 pm
I can't remember the last time we had a solid, functioning lineout unit. No matter the hooker, no matter the jumping unit.

What has the club done to rectify this? I'm on the outside, but I can't point to anything.

Boris has done wonders with our scrum. Surely we can find a specialist to tidy up our lineout?

I absolutely fed up with our lineout being an embarrassment. Its unacceptable, and its cost us an unthinkable amount of points.

Something has to change.
In my case, I decided to stop putting up with it back in January, which is when my direct debit was cancelled. There have been many failings during the past three years, but I would put the lineout at top of the list, as it shows little sign of being rectified in the long term. I just buy one-off match tickets now, mostly when it's not on TV, and feel as though a huge burden has been lifted from me, especially when a lineout throw is launched.

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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by Redstripeman » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:51 pm

If Petrenko can conduct the entire Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra solo and Rattle the London Symphony Orchestra. How does guru Bakewell spend his time? Boris does the scrum. Brett the defence. Murphy the attack. Bakewell seems to be left with a non functioning line out (maul) and breakdown (adequate). Is it a job? If it is, it's a job being done poorly because he's been at Tigers for a year and performance in his exceptionally narrow area of responsibility is substandard. Just like Cohen and Glynn, though, quality of performance doesn't seem to matter any more.
[/quote]
If the LO were diabolical all the time, it would be relatively easy to diagnose and address. But it isn't; the lineout percentage for the saints game was 92% (as opposed to 66% in the Ulster game). The issue is the LO is failing at critical moments which (IMHO) is indicative of a team low on confidence and therefore susceptible to pressure.

I hazard a guess that the LO is working perfectly in coaching sessions. The habits of the training pitch aren't surviving the pressure and contact with the opposition.

Time and a period of consistency in coaching & tactics will fix it.

No idea what's going on with the driving maul though......
[/quote]

I was thinking along the same lines kend. Your post saved me having to write it all out. I think the driving maul attack and defence is suffering from similar problems to the lineout.

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned low confidence. I was considering the performance against Ulster and came to the conclusion that their quick try in the 2nd half caused the all too familiar demons of recent times to resurface. I imagine a scenario of going in at half time knowing that we had failed to convert a number of good chances in their 22. We should have gone in at least 10 nil up. Especially after managing Ford's sin-binning extremely well. That would have been playing on the players' minds. Ulster scored quickly and then but for a forward pass would have had another try within a couple of minutes. Enter nagging doubt resulting in missed tackles, dropped balls, turnovers, knock ons, failure to convert good attacking chances. By the time the team had pulled themselves out of this mindset (the last 10 minutes) the game was gone. They picked themselves up enough to get Manu's try and come close to stealing a losing bonus at the death.

As you say it will take time and a consistent approach to put things right.
[/quote]
.... I think you are making far too many excuses for them!!!!!!
You are saying that all this is down to lack of confidence. This is down to a bunch of players who are at a big club and is happy to take the kudos and remuneration which goes along with this. This is not a team, just a bunch of individuals lacking leadership , effort and any sense of the embarrassment they are inflicting on the club and its supporters.
The current coaching team are too close to this, I do not think they will do what is needed to turn this around and that is why we need to bring in a Head coach with his own team to do what is necessary to reset this club.
It has to be done, we have taken the easy option too many times and experienced the same results, let the real professionals do what we are all too afraid and sentimental to say out aloud.

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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by ourla » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:40 pm

I thought tonight was a massive improvement both on our own and defending the oppo.
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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by drc_007 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:42 pm

ourla wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:40 pm
I thought tonight was a massive improvement both on our own and defending the oppo.
I'm not sure that Scarlets pack is much of a test.

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Re: How long are we supposed to put up with our diabolical lineout?

Post by voice of the crumbie » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:46 pm

I hope our forwards are watching Munster this afternoon. Object lessons in how to defend a maul and score from one.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

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