Ben Kay on Rugby Tonight

[JP14]

I agree with ourla, and quite frankly the creation of these strange titles seems little more than an attempt to keep their backs covered and it's happening at the expense of coaches.
Confusion is reigning!
As for the head of rugby operations, the A team lost a home fixture on Monday evening, something Leicester did not do when they were strong so that strength is a myth, also keep in mind that the likes of Evans were on the path before his arrival and Evans is better than any of the current crop in my opinion, and it's also pretty obvious in the timeline of events that his arrival coincides with the beginning of Cockers and Leicester's problems in my opinion.

Yes the A Team composed of the d squad plus Loughborough and other guest players only just lost 1 point to a side containing Ford-Robinson, Naiyaravoro, Mallinder, Haywood and Eadie. Plus it wasn’t home really it was the Loughborough Uni ground. Therefore I find your point invalid

[sam16111986]

I agree with ourla, and quite frankly the creation of these strange titles seems little more than an attempt to keep their backs covered and it's happening at the expense of coaches.
Confusion is reigning!
As for the head of rugby operations, the A team lost a home fixture on Monday evening, something Leicester did not do when they were strong so that strength is a myth, also keep in mind that the likes of Evans were on the path before his arrival and Evans is better than any of the current crop in my opinion, and it's also pretty obvious in the timeline of events that his arrival coincides with the beginning of Cockers and Leicester's problems in my opinion.

Yes the A Team composed of the d squad plus Loughborough and other guest players only just lost 1 point to a side containing Ford-Robinson, Naiyaravoro, Mallinder, Haywood and Eadie. Plus it wasn’t home really it was the Loughborough Uni ground. Therefore I find your point invalid

It was an impressive performance from our A league team against a much more experienced Saints pack. I think Gigena was our oldest and most experienced forward against the likes of Eadie, Ford-Robinson and Mikey Hayward. Our academy boys did good. Nothing wrong with trialing a few lower league players either, potential of finding a late developer and stops is burning out a squad limited in size by the salary cap.

Really nice try from George Worth as well.

[BFG]

I agree with ourla, and quite frankly the creation of these strange titles seems little more than an attempt to keep their backs covered and it's happening at the expense of coaches.
Confusion is reigning!
As for the head of rugby operations, the A team lost a home fixture on Monday evening, something Leicester did not do when they were strong so that strength is a myth, also keep in mind that the likes of Evans were on the path before his arrival and Evans is better than any of the current crop in my opinion, and it's also pretty obvious in the timeline of events that his arrival coincides with the beginning of Cockers and Leicester's problems in my opinion.

Yes the A Team composed of the d squad plus Loughborough and other guest players only just lost 1 point to a side containing Ford-Robinson, Naiyaravoro, Mallinder, Haywood and Eadie. Plus it wasn’t home really it was the Loughborough Uni ground. Therefore I find your point invalid

It was an impressive performance from our A league team against a much more experienced Saints pack. I think Gigena was our oldest and most experienced forward against the likes of Eadie, Ford-Robinson and Mikey Hayward. Our academy boys did good. Nothing wrong with trialing a few lower league players either, potential of finding a late developer and stops is burning out a squad limited in size by the salary cap.

Really nice try from George Worth as well.

I thought that might spark some Sunday Sport material from you two!

You do realise that you often list these players in your 1st XV team selection predictions and yet find it acceptable to lose in 2nd XV fixtures!
Maybe it's just me but I don't find losing that impressive!

[ourla]

He wont have much option in the end game, but technically it wont have been a dismissal (sacking) so much as an 'agreed' termination of his contract of employment.

My bold. I think you are agreeing he was "sacked" but don't want to say so.

Anyway, one question before we move on: what do you think would have happened had MOC not picked up the phone?

[ourla]

When Cockerill was at the club, he was the man that made the decisions. Mauger's job was to make the backs better. His job title was Head Coach but it was Cockerill who set the game plan, picked the team and made the decisions.

You seem confused as to what Maugers job was when he was employed. As I remember it the forwards became lighter and played more rugby, we became advocates 15 man rugby as it were. Something you were critical of as I recall. He influenced the style of the whole team. Had he been employed as a backs coach I have no doubt they would have given him that title.

MOC then offered his services to the club which they accepted and either he said he didn't want Mauger or Mauger said he didn't want to work with MOC.

That's not how I see it. Had a DoR been emp[oyed Mauger could have stayed. But MOC was employed to do the same job as Mauger.

[jgriffin]

He wont have much option in the end game, but technically it wont have been a dismissal (sacking) so much as an 'agreed' termination of his contract of employment.

My bold. I think you are agreeing he was "sacked" but don't want to say so.

Anyway, one question before we move on: what do you think would have happened had MOC not picked up the phone?

We may have made top 4 with any competent Prem standard coach.

[Grimlish]

He wont have much option in the end game, but technically it wont have been a dismissal (sacking) so much as an 'agreed' termination of his contract of employment.

My bold. I think you are agreeing he was "sacked" but don't want to say so.

Anyway, one question before we move on: what do you think would have happened had MOC not picked up the phone?

We may have made top 4 with any competent Prem standard coach.

And having tried and failed to get the top job its very likely AM would have departed in a very similar way - whatever title was given to the newly appointed person. Who wants the failed applicant for your job sitting as your number two? Who wants to be that number two? I very much doubt the Board would have given the job to AM by the time the decisions were made. Which is why it would be interesting to know who else was on the shortlist?

[johnthegriff]

In the gap between Cocker going and O'Connor coming we won 4 lost 4 previous to Cocker going our record was much the same so no improvement. The LV wins were not down to the first team coaches. Time to forget the past and get on with the future, Geordan Murphy is now our Head Coach for the time being, he deserves time to change things and I am sure he will and if we get behind him and the team we can help. We have lost one away match, the manner of the defeat was alarming, action has been taken, everything is still possible as I doubt any team will go through the season undefeated.

[ellis9]

When Cockerill was at the club, he was the man that made the decisions. Mauger's job was to make the backs better. His job title was Head Coach but it was Cockerill who set the game plan, picked the team and made the decisions.

You seem confused as to what Maugers job was when he was employed. As I remember it the forwards became lighter and played more rugby, we became advocates 15 man rugby as it were. Something you were critical of as I recall. He influenced the style of the whole team. Had he been employed as a backs coach I have no doubt they would have given him that title.

MOC then offered his services to the club which they accepted and either he said he didn't want Mauger or Mauger said he didn't want to work with MOC.

That's not how I see it. Had a DoR been emp[oyed Mauger could have stayed. But MOC was employed to do the same job as Mauger.

Yes I was/am critical of it because it's not a successful way for Tigers to win, which has been proven.

Cockerill was the decision maker, whether you like it or not. Mauger was brought in to make our backs play better and to do this, he decided the forwards needed changing. He therefore would have spoken to Cockerill who would have made the final decision on who to get rid of and who to bring in. Without Cockerill's say so, it wouldn't have happened. This I believe is what Mauger didn't like. I feel he wanted to be the one making those final decisions but that wasn't his job.

I also believe when MOC approached the board, he probably wanted the Head Coach job, not the DOR job. This is why Ged Glynn was then given Head of Rugby Operations so that he could do the job that Cockerill did, apart from team selection and game plan. Mauger and MOC together just wasn't a viable option.

[TigerCam]

In the gap between Cocker going and O'Connor coming we won 4 lost 4 previous to Cocker going our record was much the same so no improvement. The LV wins were not down to the first team coaches. Time to forget the past and get on with the future, Geordan Murphy is now our Head Coach for the time being, he deserves time to change things and I am sure he will and if we get behind him and the team we can help. We have lost one away match, the manner of the defeat was alarming, action has been taken, everything is still possible as I doubt any team will go through the season undefeated.

Agreed, this can be debated forever more but the reality is that there is a game on Saturday and 20+ more afterwards. I will give GM his time to make his impact but IMO he is not the solution to the Tigers woes. One of the first things Mauger said, on his arrival that needed sorting out, was teaching the Tigers how to catch and pass a ball as the basics skill set was not good enough. GM was then and is now the skills coach and I have not, IMO, seen anything that says to me that it has vastly improved. I really do hope that GM proves me wrong because this performance malaise has been dragging on for season after season and I am frankly peeded off with it all! I do not, unlike some, expect the Tigers to win every game, cup etc. but I do expect them to have challenged well for any of the silverware that is available.

[ourla]

Anyway, one question before we move on: what do you think would have happened had MOC not picked up the phone?

We may have made top 4 with any competent Prem standard coach.

That wasn't really what I was asking. Assuming MOC had not picked up the phone then would the board have continued looking for a DOR? Presumably they would have left Mauger in charge. I just think it's indicative of muddled thinking and lack of planning and direction from the board. They appear to be changing things on a whim. What if they get a phone call from an experienced DOR next week who is quite persuasive in saying he will bring success to the club. Things may work out with Murphy but it's not through any planning or clear direction from the board is it?

[ourla]

Time to forget the past and get on with the future

Except the past may well be the future in this case. Because the board and rugby panel, or whatever it's called, hasn't changed. We have another interim coach "in charge" with little structure or plan.

[ourla]

Cockerill was the decision maker, whether you like it or not. Mauger was brought in to make our backs play better and to do this, he decided the forwards needed changing. He therefore would have spoken to Cockerill who would have made the final decision on who to get rid of and who to bring in. Without Cockerill's say so, it wouldn't have happened. This I believe is what Mauger didn't like. I feel he wanted to be the one making those final decisions but that wasn't his job.

And the board sacked Cockers and backed Mauger. Then MOC rang them up and told them he could do better. The board who seemed to be racked by indecision, then changed their mind about Mauger and immediately sacked him and told MOC to crack on. Some people called it at the time (not me I hasten to add) but in hindsight at best it looks a bit amateur.

I also believe when MOC approached the board, he probably wanted the Head Coach job, not the DOR job. This is why Ged Glynn was then given Head of Rugby Operations so that he could do the job that Cockerill did, apart from team selection and game plan.

No as I already told you Glynn had been appointed to his role two years earlier.

[Goshengareth]

The details are beyond me of who did what, and who was supposed to do what. However, it is clear it has been very messy, very confused, and most importantly, unsuccessful.

One way that helps me view the calibre of our coaching / management set up (I include Kay and Underwood in this), is by considering which of them would be likely headhunted to work at a top tier, successful club. The short answer is none of them. Sarries won't be knocking our door down to hire any of the coaches, and certainly not to bring on Kay as a board advisor. Whereas personalities aside I am sure many Tigers fans would be delighted if Mark McCall or Brendan Venter or Sanderson were hired by Tigers.

Whilst I like Ben Kay, and enjoy his commentary, he has not depth of experience or skills in leadership, coaching, running a team, etc. Anyway, fingers crossed GM does an excellent job, and we get in the Top 4.

[Mark62]

The details are beyond me of who did what, and who was supposed to do what. However, it is clear it has been very messy, very confused, and most importantly, unsuccessful.

One way that helps me view the calibre of our coaching / management set up (I include Kay and Underwood in this), is by considering which of them would be likely headhunted to work at a top tier, successful club. The short answer is none of them. Sarries won't be knocking our door down to hire any of the coaches, and certainly not to bring on Kay as a board advisor. Whereas personalities aside I am sure many Tigers fans would be delighted if Mark McCall or Brendan Venter or Sanderson were hired by Tigers.

Whilst I like Ben Kay, and enjoy his commentary, he has not depth of experience or skills in leadership, coaching, running a team, etc. Anyway, fingers crossed GM does an excellent job, and we get in the Top 4.

When has it ever been said that Ben Kay is involved in coaching. He and Underwood are the directors who report back on the playing side to the board, which is why he made his statement on the telly.
This is just like in a normal company where directors look after Sales or Purchasing