Tigers v Falcons

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westwinds31
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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by westwinds31 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:51 pm

Toby Flood mentioned in commentary at Sale that it takes 3-4 games to get fully match fit, despite all the effort in pre-season. I go back to the defence, which looks like an under 16 set up. Not much line speed, jumping out of the line trying (and usually failing) for the big hit and spacing. Basic stuff really at the top level. As long as the communication is there, it should work. Missed tackles don’t help but Exeter and Sarries scramble “D” is superb and there’s no reason why we can’t get to those levels, with the right coach and the buy in from the squad.

I agree with the comments about kicking the ball away. Back to Sarries, when the box kick it’s to compete, not to chase down field and hope for the best. Or you go down the Exeter route and keep the ball and wear down the opposition. I can’t see us having the discipline for the Exeter route.

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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by sam16111986 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:16 pm

westwinds31 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:51 pm
Toby Flood mentioned in commentary at Sale that it takes 3-4 games to get fully match fit, despite all the effort in pre-season. I go back to the defence, which looks like an under 16 set up. Not much line speed, jumping out of the line trying (and usually failing) for the big hit and spacing. Basic stuff really at the top level. As long as the communication is there, it should work. Missed tackles don’t help but Exeter and Sarries scramble “D” is superb and there’s no reason why we can’t get to those levels, with the right coach and the buy in from the squad.

I agree with the comments about kicking the ball away. Back to Sarries, when the box kick it’s to compete, not to chase down field and hope for the best. Or you go down the Exeter route and keep the ball and wear down the opposition. I can’t see us having the discipline for the Exeter route.
Exeter kick long and chase. They don't just play from their 22. They send the big units to crash the ball up a couple of times and if it's not on the kicker then has a platform to kick really deep. The difference is that they have phenomenal defensive discipline and several very good jackals over the ball. Pin the opposition in their half and force them to kick under pressure. It's what MOC was hoping to organise here but he failed miserably.

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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by BFG » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:47 pm

sam16111986 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:16 pm

Exeter kick long and chase. They don't just play from their 22. They send the big units to crash the ball up a couple of times and if it's not on the kicker then has a platform to kick really deep. The difference is that they have phenomenal defensive discipline and several very good jackals over the ball. Pin the opposition in their half and force them to kick under pressure. It's what MOC was hoping to organise here but he failed miserably.
But it didn't fail miserably when Leicester beat Exeter at Welford Road last season!

LE18
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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by LE18 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:10 pm

jgriffin wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 2:50 pm
ellis9 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 11:42 am
jgriffin wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 8:43 pm

Agree 100%, especially BY giving ball away. Got tutted at by some fans for yelling 'stop kicking possession away'
I get the impression that some people will only be happy if Ben never kicks the ball!

The worst box kick of the day came from Harrison when he came on but I never heard anyone complain about that kick.
Whataboutery. Ben kicked too often, and sometimes wrongly. We effect a brilliant turnover on our 22, two phases later he box kicks. They run it back and eventually score. Two of such kicks handed possession to a team that scored their first two tries with the only possession they had. Lesson was deny them ball, but this didn't happen, especially the 3rd quarter.
I'm glad that you and I both watched the same match, it certainly looked like he had been told to get ball out quickly, which he did, no hesitating or crabbing, just straight out, and not box kick, before he changed his play after approx 25 mins, then Ford put up a bad one, we were in front and caught offside, that was point game really changed and Falcons started to score!

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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by sam16111986 » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:32 pm

BFG wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:47 pm
sam16111986 wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 8:16 pm

Exeter kick long and chase. They don't just play from their 22. They send the big units to crash the ball up a couple of times and if it's not on the kicker then has a platform to kick really deep. The difference is that they have phenomenal defensive discipline and several very good jackals over the ball. Pin the opposition in their half and force them to kick under pressure. It's what MOC was hoping to organise here but he failed miserably.
But it didn't fail miserably when Leicester beat Exeter at Welford Road last season!
No that was during an interlude of half decent form between our dire start to the season and our record breaking losing streak. Couple of results there gave us some false hope. Wasn't it about a month later Worcester rocked up and beat us at Welford Road?

I believe we had the players to do the job. Let's hope Murphy keeps building and this isn't another false dawn.

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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by mightymouse » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:08 am

Re kicking .. I would agree that sensible kicking from a 10 is a good idea if you are in your own 22. clear the ball well down field. close them down and try a force the breakdown deep in opposition half preferably a lineout. however that is not what was happening. it's either kicking down the throat of the back 3 or some pointless lottery of an up and under. neither gain you any significant territory and give the opposition the possession.
it may have escaped someones attention that Falcons had been quite handy with possession in the preceding 70 minutes. As a front row forward for several years I can tell you it's a lot easier to hold onto a ball for 10 mins than to defend it in your own half.
when Ford kicked the ball away with 4 minutes on the clock and gained about 8 meters, I would happily punched him had I been the front row on the field and he had been my 10. Fly halves like that always may me sick .. just brainless ... and they reckon the props are thick!

Chobbsy
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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by Chobbsy » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:22 am

I wasn't there I haven't seen the game, but I am still concerned that we leaked so many points. should I be concerned?
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Robespierre
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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by Robespierre » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:32 am

Morning, all!
Just seen the result and was delighted - and have to say, rather surprised too!
A very encouraging step in the right direction, although clearly, there is a lot of work to do with defence as it seems that a few soft tries were leaked.
I hope to be over for the Scarlets match on October 19th and hope that the defence will be watertight by then!
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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by BFG » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:50 am

Chobbsy wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:22 am
I wasn't there I haven't seen the game, but I am still concerned that we leaked so many points. should I be concerned?
Yes you should be a little!
In possession Leicester were fine, however the half backs did seem to get a little bit bored of what was working well and went a bit off script.
A lot will also come down to the injury list.
I think the league is very close regarding attacking quality, and possession and game management are going to be very important.
Falcons nearly punished everything that was wasteful from Leicester, fortunately in the end they coughed it up themselves but that won't always be the case.
It was pretty nervy at one latter stage of the game.

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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by drc_007 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:58 am

Looking at the first half tries by Newcastle.

First try, Sinotti breaks through between Denton and Bateman(?), probably too much of a gap between them.

Second try, Hammersley makes good outside break, hunted down and stripped by Manu, May stumbles and Goneva picks up loose ball to score. Eastmond possibly should have been covering across but was limping and replaced minutes later.

Third try ball passed wide to Goneva on touchline, Veainu makes absolutely pitiful attempt at tackle allowing Goneva to score.

Second half

Fourth try, Series of forward drives, Wilson bursts away from breakdown, Tigers forwards lack of concentration.

Fifth try, another try from pick and drive at breakdown. Throughout the match Newcastle made progress with pick and drive, too often Tigers forwards allow themselves to be pinned to the ground by the opposition or end up standing a yard or two behind the breakdown allowing opposition forwards to gain vital yards.

mol2
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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by mol2 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:31 am

Good points -

The attack worked well. They used the backs effectively with the forwards driving around the rucks but also spinning it wide quickly when they did to prevent the opposition defence from having time to reorganise, with the backs available the scores came relatively easily. (A big change last season's on all the pick and drives going nowhere or passes from one side to the other to static players who shipped it on without getting near or over the gain line)
Manu looked more his old self - even trying to avoid being tacked rather than running through the tackler. Nice touch from OTY running across the field to congratulate Manu.
Thanking the fans at the end of the game.

Bad points -

Defence not good. Some missed tackles but clearly lacking a disciplined structure. Like last season, we struggled against powerful ball carriers.

Concerns -

We seemed to pick up injuries to key players O'Connor especially.
Kicking - kicking to their backs rather than to touch or behind them. Too many up and unders when there was lots of space behind to kick the ball into.

voice of the crumbie
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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by voice of the crumbie » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:53 pm

Agree with all your points mol2.

I would add that Ben Youngs provided very quick service from the base of rucks in the first half in particular. There was none of the take two steps, have a look around and then decide who to pass to that we have become used to which helped the speed of attack and gave Falcons less time to organise their defence. I hope this continues.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

ellis9
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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by ellis9 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:48 pm

drc_007 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:58 am
Looking at the first half tries by Newcastle.

First try, Sinotti breaks through between Denton and Bateman(?), probably too much of a gap between them.

Second try, Hammersley makes good outside break, hunted down and stripped by Manu, May stumbles and Goneva picks up loose ball to score. Eastmond possibly should have been covering across but was limping and replaced minutes later.

Third try ball passed wide to Goneva on touchline, Veainu makes absolutely pitiful attempt at tackle allowing Goneva to score.

Second half

Fourth try, Series of forward drives, Wilson bursts away from breakdown, Tigers forwards lack of concentration.

Fifth try, another try from pick and drive at breakdown. Throughout the match Newcastle made progress with pick and drive, too often Tigers forwards allow themselves to be pinned to the ground by the opposition or end up standing a yard or two behind the breakdown allowing opposition forwards to gain vital yards.
I think you're being harsh on Veainu. Had it been the other way round, we'd have been saying what an excellent finish it was from Veainu. Goneva is a world class finisher and his pace and strength got him around Veainu.

voice of the crumbie
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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by voice of the crumbie » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:31 am

I think you're being harsh on Veainu. Had it been the other way round, we'd have been saying what an excellent finish it was from Veainu. Goneva is a world class finisher and his pace and strength got him around Veainu.
[/quote]

I agree with this assessment.

Goneva's pick up of the loose ball for his first try was also amazing. Many players would have fumbled and knocked on. I have no complaints about his two tries. However for the other three our defending / tackling could have been much better.
Tigers for the premiership and European Cup. Get behind the team and make some noise!!

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Re: Tigers v Falcons

Post by Soggypitch » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:56 am

Kicking - the problem is not that we kick too much, but that we too often kick badly/aimlessly.

The All Blacks kick a lot, but nearly always to good effect. Sarries likewise.

We need to either positively kick for touch out of defence, box kick/up and under giving our chasers time to properly challenge for the ball (and we mustn't be shy about challenging in the air), or kick long into space and make the defence turn.

In addition there are obviously grubber kicks, dinks etc which should ideally only be employed in the opposition half!

The above sounds easy but it is not, especially when the half backs are under pressure. BUT we have the current England 9 and 10 and I think they both kick better for England than for Tigers, so there is definitely room for improvement!!!
Soggypitch

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