Pitches

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Rizzo, Tigerbeat, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Mark62
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:16 pm

Re: Pitches

Post by Mark62 » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:56 pm

iceman_19 wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:43 pm
Mark62 I’ve played on both types of pitches, natural and 4G.

I would say that 4G feels a bit quicker but for welfare, in my view, it is a big no no. Firstly, the ‘burns’ and cuts you get are twice as bad as on a normal pitch. Trying to put on any clothing on the affected areas was agony for days after. Secondly, I suffered a torn acl and had a full reconstruction a few years ago. It is absolutely fine when I play on natural pitches, but whenever I play on artificial 4G pitches, it balloons up and prevents me from working out or running for weeks afterwards. One hour of a football on a 4G pitch caused me more grief than an entire season on natural grass! I know I’m not alone in hating them, Jack Nowell - for one - refuses to play on them.

Also, it’s late summer Mark - are you sure it wasn’t just thanks to the conditions it was a quick game?! :smt002
Possibly but as I said nuts and bolts were there too.
Probably no different to playing on a rock hard grass pitch with all the bumps and grazes and strains that brings

johnthegriff
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:37 am

Re: Pitches

Post by johnthegriff » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:58 pm

Statistics kept over the past two seasons now that 25% of the pitches in the Premiership are synthetic show that significantly more injuries occur on those pitches although it cannot be absolutely certain that the pitches cause the injury. A number of players are reluctant to play on synthetic surfaces as they feel they cause or aggravate injury, (Ed Slater & Jack Nowell to name just two). I believe there are studies taking place in the U.S regarding possible carcinogenic effects of the rubber crumb used on pitches like the one at Saracens but I think so far the incident sample is too small to make a case but there are concerns.
There is no doubt if the fears prove to be unfounded then the artificial surface can have far greater usage with less maintenance cost than a grass pitch however I think over the years Saracens have found the saving not to be as great as they expected.

JP14
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3435
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:37 am
Location: Neverland

Re: Pitches

Post by JP14 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:49 am

I’ve not played on the Forest pitch but I think I might do this season, I have not played on 4G yet but my teammates who have played on one in a National Cup fixture says it was awful. I have done the coaching clinics on the hybrid Tigers pitch (which is what Gloucester have got now) and I must say it’s absolutely gorgeous to play on, hardly a stain on me afterwards, even in the pouring rain! 😂
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

BFG
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2336
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Pitches

Post by BFG » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:06 am

Nothing wrong with the surface whatever the type.
It's all about building resistance to a particular surface.
Having so many different types is not ideal for the players in my opinion but it certainly makes things more interesting.

cape
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 10:56 am
Location: Various, Nuneaton, Ipswich, Germany!

Re: Pitches

Post by cape » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:26 am

Full 4G pitches seem to be creating more serious, long term injuries. There is a study in the US looking at the impact on the increase in ACL injuries and to see if there is a correlation. In terms of lesser injuries, the Scarlets players hated the Glasgow pitch and game away with some serious burns to their skin - which yes you do get on dry grass pitches also but not to the same extent.

It does make the game quicker though that is without question, but I personally don't mind seeing players challenged by the conditions. Heavy players who just smash the ball up is a northern hemisphere issue predominantly - forwards in SH seem to have better skill sets, and some of the best backs are pretty diminutive - also wet conditions suited to the muscular crash ball players help perpetuate the slower game - which is probably why teams like NZ ruthlessly kill off games because they play with a speed and tempo that can't be matched. However I don't believe they use 4G pitches either so evidently it is not down to the pitches and I have watched some Super rugby games played in ridiculous weather and yet skill set is still first rate - so I don't think the pitches matter as much as coaching when it comes to playing attacking rugby - Wasps don't use 4G and they play expansive rugby in the league as do others

JP14
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3435
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:37 am
Location: Neverland

Re: Pitches

Post by JP14 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:41 am

Wasps have a Desso grassmaster pitch, similar to ours. I’m pretty sure that no Super Eugby teams have a 4G pitch.

Edit: If my research is correct, no Super Rugby teams have a 4G pitch and only three use hybrids.
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

Mark62
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:16 pm

Re: Pitches

Post by Mark62 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 11:52 am

JP14 wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:41 am
Wasps have a Desso grassmaster pitch, similar to ours. I’m pretty sure that no Super Eugby teams have a 4G pitch.

Edit: If my research is correct, no Super Rugby teams have a 4G pitch and only three use hybrids.
I’m sure you’re right. From memory when Tigers was installed it was mentioned that The Crusaders And Highlanders had a similar surface

DeadlyDunc
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:05 pm

Re: Pitches

Post by DeadlyDunc » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:34 pm

JP14 wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:41 am
Wasps have a Desso grassmaster pitch, similar to ours. I’m pretty sure that no Super Eugby teams have a 4G pitch.

Edit: If my research is correct, no Super Rugby teams have a 4G pitch and only three use hybrids.
Wasps have a Greenfields hybrid pitch called XtraGrass.

Just as with natural pitches & hybrid pitches there are good and bad versions of artficial grass Rugby pitches and plenty of different systems and sub base solutions to choose from.

Saying artificial grass pitch X is rubbish so 4G (its actually still 3G pitches, 4G doesnt exist) pitches are all poor isn’t far off saying the local park grass pitch is rubbish so all natural turf pitches are poor.

At amateur club level the cost of lost matches and lost revenue from non playing aspects such as the bar takings on a match day mean that an artificial is the best way for clubs to sustain themselves.

An artificial also allows clubs to generate revenue from community use and commercial lettings which can underpin improved natural turf pitches and club infrastructure.

As with anything there is a nuanced debate to be had but I would argue that in the right situation a 3G artificial pitch is the best solution for many clubs, schools and others.

Mark62
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:16 pm

Re: Pitches

Post by Mark62 » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:45 pm

DeadlyDunc wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:34 pm
JP14 wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:41 am
Wasps have a Desso grassmaster pitch, similar to ours. I’m pretty sure that no Super Eugby teams have a 4G pitch.

Edit: If my research is correct, no Super Rugby teams have a 4G pitch and only three use hybrids.
Wasps have a Greenfields hybrid pitch called XtraGrass.

Just as with natural pitches & hybrid pitches there are good and bad versions of artficial grass Rugby pitches and plenty of different systems and sub base solutions to choose from.

Saying artificial grass pitch X is rubbish so 4G (its actually still 3G pitches, 4G doesnt exist) pitches are all poor isn’t far off saying the local park grass pitch is rubbish so all natural turf pitches are poor.

At amateur club level the cost of lost matches and lost revenue from non playing aspects such as the bar takings on a match day mean that an artificial is the best way for clubs to sustain themselves.

An artificial also allows clubs to generate revenue from community use and commercial lettings which can underpin improved natural turf pitches and club infrastructure.

As with anything there is a nuanced debate to be had but I would argue that in the right situation a 3G artificial pitch is the best solution for many clubs, schools and others.
Not questioning you but why are they quoted as 4G if it doesn’t exist

DeadlyDunc
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:05 pm

Re: Pitches

Post by DeadlyDunc » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:50 pm

It’s a Marketing term created by Rugby to differentiate from 3G football pitches.

The actual grasses are the same for both football and rugby albeit with a slightly stronger backing on Rugby grasses.

In terms of new technology over and above 3G then there is none.

Tiger_in_Birmingham
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1693
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 2:55 pm
Location: Birmingham / Bangor Uni

Re: Pitches

Post by Tiger_in_Birmingham » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:31 pm

DeadlyDunc wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:50 pm
It’s a Marketing term created by Rugby to differentiate from 3G football pitches.
Whilst was invented by a marketing team it doesn't mean it isn't a valid distinction and it certainly wasn't done to differentiate between different sports.
DeadlyDunc wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:50 pm
In terms of new technology over and above 3G then there is none.
it depends on who's 4G you're refering to; some companies have tweaked their blade construction slightly meaning to more rubber crumb is needed. Considering in America there is a big investigation into the (potential) harmful effects of the rubber crumb making this change could potentially be a big step forward & certainly not vastly different to the change between 2G and 3G.

1G = astroturf
2G = sand based & short blades
3G = rubber crumb & long blades
4G = no rubber crumb, or other deviation away from 3G specification

DeadlyDunc
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 175
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:05 pm

Re: Pitches

Post by DeadlyDunc » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:09 pm

Tiger_in_Birmingham wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:31 pm
DeadlyDunc wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:50 pm
It’s a Marketing term created by Rugby to differentiate from 3G football pitches.
Whilst was invented by a marketing team it doesn't mean it isn't a valid distinction and it certainly wasn't done to differentiate between different sports.
DeadlyDunc wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:50 pm
In terms of new technology over and above 3G then there is none.
it depends on who's 4G you're refering to; some companies have tweaked their blade construction slightly meaning to more rubber crumb is needed. Considering in America there is a big investigation into the (potential) harmful effects of the rubber crumb making this change could potentially be a big step forward & certainly not vastly different to the change between 2G and 3G.

1G = astroturf
2G = sand based & short blades
3G = rubber crumb & long blades
4G = no rubber crumb, or other deviation away from 3G specification
No unfilled 3G (what you refer to being 4G) actually comply with either FIFA or World Rugby standards though so whilst unfilled 3G exists many would argue unfilled surfaces are actually 1G as the original AstroTurf inventions back in 60s and 70s were unfilled. Top level unfilled short pile surfaces are still used for top level hockey so unfilled grasses are hardly a new innovation or leap forward, particularly as those described as 4G that are available don’t comply with the necessary standards.

With regards to 3G/ 4G / football / Rugby I don’t think there was a collective decision by Rugby to go with 4G instead of 3G but it was an easy way to differentiate Rugby pitches to Football pitches and it’s stuck.

The fact it’s stuck and most rugby fields are described as 4G means it’s worked regardless of intention and what is language but an ever evolving form of common communication so perhaps 4G does exist by this fact.

Sorry got a bit existential there

fortysix
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1164
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:22 pm

Re: Pitches

Post by fortysix » Thu Aug 30, 2018 8:47 pm

A top current England player, on holiday , three weeks ago at the beach house next door to me told me----------after I asked him whether he would sign for us--------- well ''I certainly wont sign for Newcastle Sarries or Worcester''.. too many injuries...

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Freebird, Hot_Charlie and 2 guests