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sam16111986
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Re: Exeter team

Post by sam16111986 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:54 pm

WhitecapTiger wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:26 pm
sam16111986 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:31 pm
Have you played at 9 or 10? Very hard to scrap the game plan and change things completely in play. If you've got half time to go over it then doable but in a 30 second pause in play?

I'm watching the game back. Ben Young's is desperate for forward runners on quick ball but the attacking pattern on every forwards carry is 10m away which sucks all the pace off the ball. Ford's passing is flat and dangerous when there were runners for him, Toomua had his worst game in a Tigers shirt which didn't help.

We had the players to win that game but the coaching set up was so poor the Chiefs just picked us apart. The Chiefs structure was so much simpler than ours and infinitely more effective. I don't know why we don't just run everything off of Ford and then have a runner behind Youngs in case he tries something from the base. Give the decision making back to the players instead of the over elaborate badly scripted mess that we currently have.
No Sam, I haven't played at 9 or 10. I was a forward, No8 mainly, but played Lock here and there too, so quite often a ball carrier running off 9s and when things weren't going right I wasn't afraid to say s*d this, try something else. Once more, no-one is asking for a wholesale change of game plan in a 30 second pause, just something different now and then instead of slow ruck recycle, pass and kick then tire yourself out defending the next wave. Some of these 'senior' players who seem to want/have such a voice at times should step up on the pitch - where it really matters, grab the team by the scruff off the neck and direct a change in play, even if only the next play. These are professional players, if they cannot try a different play then we are lost, truly lost.

If Ben Youngs isn't getting the runners/lines he desires then Ben Youngs, as a senior player and on field commander ( :smt009 ) should be grabbing the forwards and saying where it's going wrong - under the posts at conversions if needs be, I didn't see any of that. I had plenty of 9s who were vociferous enough to tell me/us that, and it worked - mix it up a bit, become unpredictable. Too many wannabe leaders (voices) amongst themselves and no-one actually leading. Ultimately that point just glaringly highlights the lack of appropriate pre-season work imo, I may even go as far as to say it demonstrates a lack of coaching ability or foresight not to address the issue in pre-season.

The bit I've highlighted in your post actually almost sides with my argument, except that where seasoned professionals can see something isn't working they shouldn't wait to be empowered, they should empower themselves and hang the consequences. In the event that it doesn't work, or any strategy doesn't work, ad-libbed or not, then it's most likely down to their incompetence.

I am well aware, and onside with you, that we had the players to win that game, also aware that the (lack of effective) game plan killed us before we began but, if the players aren't willing to try heads up rugby, or are incapable of working as a team i.e. listening to impassioned pleas on field of "try this instead" then they're simply not good enough for the shirt - imo.

I've just watched Tom Youngs' post match interview, he looked broken, lost for words but had to find some - I get that in the aftermath, it was sort of honest but nowhere near brutal enough in the cold light of day. It was like watching Steve Borthwick (admirably) defending Johnno / England against Italy in Rome in the 6N all those years ago, everybody knew things were poor but the party line was trotted out.

People (supporters) are fed up of hearing "We can change this", "we are going to change this" or "we will change this", there is no evidence to support any of those claims over the last year and a half (and more). The collective desire is seemingly missing, the top two inches seem to be missing and the output from a group of World / International class players is glaringly absent.

Ordinarily I'd shrug off a loss, try to find positives, particularly in the first match of the season - last year's loss to Bath at home was disappointing but there was more grit and effort than today, just a lack of execution - today we didn't get into any meaningful positions to have a chance at screwing up the execution bit - it was abject surrender, and that is what irks me. It wasn't all down to Exeter's superb play either.
I think the lack of leaders on the pitch is an issue.

I also think that the problems on the pitch were beyond a let's try something different. We played completely differently in the second half compared to the first. That was part of the overall game plan. Kick with the wind in the first and keep the ball and attack in the second against the wind. The overall structures in defence and attack were so badly thought out and so unsuitable to the players we have that the plan in both halves never going to work.

strawclearer
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Re: Exeter team

Post by strawclearer » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:05 pm

Just had a very quick look at the Exeter forum.

The over-riding sentiment?

Pity.

That...........hurts.
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
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WhitecapTiger
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Re: Exeter team

Post by WhitecapTiger » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:08 pm

sam16111986 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:54 pm

I think the lack of leaders on the pitch is an issue.

I also think that the problems on the pitch were beyond a let's try something different. We played completely differently in the second half compared to the first. That was part of the overall game plan. Kick with the wind in the first and keep the ball and attack in the second against the wind. The overall structures in defence and attack were so badly thought out and so unsuitable to the players we have that the plan in both halves never going to work.
Agree 99%

I get the game plan angle and the 'game of two halves' bit but, if things are not working and you're getting humped, you are never beyond trying something different, we had nothing (but a bit more credibility) to lose. By doing the same thing (over and over and more importantly ineffectively) we destroyed that credibility anyway.

Repeatedly kicking possession away to an attacking running team at their own ground, with or without wind is lunacy - as is playing players who have not prepared properly, particularly due to injury.

The plan was doomed to fail - MOC basically admitted so by stating afterwards that players were short of pre-season preparation minutes (his doing) so why (broken record time) did the players not 'can the plan' and play alternative options - even if only once or twice, they are capable of running, if they had done so more in the first half then the confidence may have raised and the 2nd half 'plan' may have actually worked - Exeter would have been forced to work harder than they were and the energy drain would (maybe) have been reversed.

If fit, BOC should be captaining this team imo and any 'old sweats' who don't like it can sit in the dressing room. There has to be some mutual respect and consideration but this apparent decision by committee stuff just doesn't work on the pitch - again, imo.
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G.K
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Re: Exeter team

Post by G.K » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:08 am

strawclearer wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:05 pm
Just had a very quick look at the Exeter forum.

The over-riding sentiment?

Pity.

That...........hurts.
And pity can so easily become contempt.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

drc_007
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Re: Exeter team

Post by drc_007 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:30 am

Just two stats from http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats? ... gue=267979

Lineout 55% success
Tackles missed 42. (Is this a record?).

markharbtiger
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Re: Exeter team

Post by markharbtiger » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:49 am

drc_007 wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:30 am
Just two stats from http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/matchstats? ... gue=267979

Lineout 55% success
Tackles missed 42. (Is this a record?).
Other than own scrums won, those stats make poor reading.

norfolkexpat
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Re: Exeter team

Post by norfolkexpat » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:06 am

Can who missed what be evaluated ?
Tuilagi is a wonderful tackler of thin air with very expansive hand gestures, he is so embarrassing our Austin felt he had to ""highlight"" it. ....he has to go, 4 seasons wasted and if his name wasn't Tuilagi you would never hear of him again. Plus he was laughing and joking as soon as theFinal whistle fell. Bet the supporters who travelled really appreciated that.
The whole fricking team should be at Oval Park today and tomorrow just being made to run until they :censored: collapse. Absolutely gobsmackingly disgraceful.
Oh and O'Connor amongst others needs the chop before Oval Park.
Austin stated that in his indiscreet indirect fashion

Finally . The Daily Mail was right.

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Re: Exeter team

Post by Smudger67S » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:11 am

Smudger67S wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:31 pm
Reminiscent of Saints start last season.
Doesn’t bode well for Tigers.
Fortunes turned for Saints when Mallinder left.
I suspect the Tigers board will act more swiftly than the Saints board last year.
I did Saints an injustice, at least they manufactured 3 tries in their opener last year v Sarries.
Very little sympathy out there for Tigers.
Lack of ambition in gaining a world class coach will finally come home to roost this season.
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markharbtiger
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Re: Exeter team

Post by markharbtiger » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:21 am

norfolkexpat wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:06 am

Finally . The Daily Mail was right.
There’s something you don’t hear too often.

JP14
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Re: Exeter team

Post by JP14 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:24 am

The “senior players” need to take it into their own hands now, play how they want to play, do a France of 2011 or an England of ‘07.

For me, the first problem was starting Toomua, not trained with us enough this season, disjointed our defence by bursting out and isolating Manu, who was frustrated therefore launching himself everywhere. It might have been so different if Eastmond had started and Olowofela had come on around the 50th minute as should have the whole front row. I really feel for Cole too with MOC stupidly playing him till the 70th odd minute. Polota-Nau added a dimension in attack when he came on but he was continuing his poor lineout form for the Wallabies with us.

A minor commiseration would be that yesterday’s pile of rubbish is because the players are doing a Bath and trying to get rid of the head coach. However I highly doubt it.
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Re: Exeter team

Post by Robespierre » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:54 am

I've just seen the result and couldn't believe it.
The home match against Newcastle simply has to be make or break for O'Connor, and Deano and his players must be rubbing their hands in eager anticipation of another Falcons' win at Welford Road.
It saddens me to say it but just maybe the players won't try too hard to win this game in order to hammer the final nail into O'Connor's coffin, as alluded to by JP14 in the previous post.
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Re: Exeter team

Post by jgriffin » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:02 am

Some of these players wanted MOC just as they wanted AM - and didn't want to be roasted and beasted for poor performance by RC (which is largely a myth TBH). RC basically laid the blame with the BoD in an interview in the Times last June : the Board wanted change, cheaply, and would not buy players or coaches he wanted, despite decline. So they sacked him and went into a death spin.
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ellis9
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Re: Exeter team

Post by ellis9 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:10 am

JP14 wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:24 am
The “senior players” need to take it into their own hands now, play how they want to play, do a France of 2011 or an England of ‘07.

For me, the first problem was starting Toomua, not trained with us enough this season, disjointed our defence by bursting out and isolating Manu, who was frustrated therefore launching himself everywhere. It might have been so different if Eastmond had started and Olowofela had come on around the 50th minute as should have the whole front row. I really feel for Cole too with MOC stupidly playing him till the 70th odd minute. Polota-Nau added a dimension in attack when he came on but he was continuing his poor lineout form for the Wallabies with us.

A minor commiseration would be that yesterday’s pile of rubbish is because the players are doing a Bath and trying to get rid of the head coach. However I highly doubt it.
If players are doing this to get MOC sacked, then they're going the wrong way about it. If they want him sacked, then they need to approach the board and tell them. They don't need to put the fans or themselves through such awful performances. Go to the board now and tell them and they can sack him straight away. If they try doing it through bad performances then it could be Christmas before he is sacked and by then it'll be too late.

strawclearer
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Re: Exeter team

Post by strawclearer » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:23 am

Totally agree JG

I watched OTY's post match report on LTTV. I know how difficult such events can be and it's easy to say things you don't mean and it's not Tom's strong point...BUT:

"We couldn't get hold of the ball for long periods of time and that was our own doing a little bit.
We let it slip easily.
We were slow to get to the breakdown at times.
They wore us out a little bit - they took advantage when we were very tired at times.
You know how good your pre-season was when you finally run out - we lost the physical war."


I'm not sure - I don't think I dreamed it and I'm not saying the interview has been 'amended' - but I seem to recall he also said "we gave up at the end". I can't find that quote now so can't stand by it.

Nevertheless, the quotes above are damning. They reek of capitulation and self-pity. They are defeatist.

Like every supporter, I have lots of time for the Youngs and for Tom in particular but - imho he is not a captain and should immediately return to the ranks. Cohen is not a Coach and should go - now. Let's be radical - use the £700k or whatever Toomua costs to buy a great coach or let the players sort it out themselves! (Yes - hysteria is setting in but I've supported Tigers for over 60 years and I've never felt 'pity' from other clubs before!)
Happy days clearing straw from the pitch before the Baa-Baas games! KBO
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WhitecapTiger
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Re: Exeter team

Post by WhitecapTiger » Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:25 am

ellis9 wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 10:10 am
JP14 wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:24 am
The “senior players” need to take it into their own hands now, play how they want to play, do a France of 2011 or an England of ‘07.

For me, the first problem was starting Toomua, not trained with us enough this season, disjointed our defence by bursting out and isolating Manu, who was frustrated therefore launching himself everywhere. It might have been so different if Eastmond had started and Olowofela had come on around the 50th minute as should have the whole front row. I really feel for Cole too with MOC stupidly playing him till the 70th odd minute. Polota-Nau added a dimension in attack when he came on but he was continuing his poor lineout form for the Wallabies with us.

A minor commiseration would be that yesterday’s pile of rubbish is because the players are doing a Bath and trying to get rid of the head coach. However I highly doubt it.
If players are doing this to get MOC sacked, then they're going the wrong way about it. If they want him sacked, then they need to approach the board and tell them. They don't need to put the fans or themselves through such awful performances. Go to the board now and tell them and they can sack him straight away. If they try doing it through bad performances then it could be Christmas before he is sacked and by then it'll be too late.
Absolutely, be up-front, have some damned integrity, I'd rather not have snide players like that in a Tigers shirt.

Mind you, that's assuming they haven't already tried that and been told where to go by the BoD who have faith in their man after a Worldwide search.
Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

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