Ford and Youngs

[Rugbyflanker]

Yes the premature recalls of Youngs and Tuilagi was a catastrophic error imo which cost us a playoff place,both clearly were not ready.

[jgriffin]

Just to support BFG and repeat myself - yes BY is a top SH, but IN CONTEXT of where Tiger's were midseason, Shazam/Toomua worked excellently (although why Toomua placekicked when Sam is very good at it......). It seemed sensible to continue as we were not playing teams functioning any better than those we beat BUT that's not what happened. Frankly IMO our play-off run was failed by selection and the coaches not sticking with form.

[westwinds31]

Yes we would be having this discussion. There's been plenty of times for club and country when Ben has dilly dallyed at the BD and completely brought quick ball to a complete standstill,likewise Ford has been behind a dominant pack and done nothing too!

When ?

[westwinds31]

Yes the premature recalls of Youngs and Tuilagi was a catastrophic error imo which cost us a playoff place,both clearly were not ready.

They were ready, but they weren’t match fit, which takes a few games to get that sharpness back. You only get that by playing.i get that their kicking game hasn’t been that great in South Africa and could improve. The breakdown has been a mess which hasn’t helped Youngs. Ford was on fire for the first quarter in both games, but when your forwards stop clearing out, competing at the breakdown, knock on and build up a catalogue of errors, it’s difficult to get in the game.

[chris111]

Mythological status is all we have to go on chris111 as the Harrison/Toomua partnership was broken up at the first opportunity, and Sam was playing so well he was overplayed and looked tired, I imagine him fully conditioned and playing regularly he might be even better, but we don't really know for certain as it never happens.
The only thing we can say with any real foundation is that the rest failed badly in that they played more and the play offs weren't even reached.

At no time did I claim the Harrison/Toomua partnership was not a success - the point I was trying to make was that it’s not easy to make a direct comparison with Ford/Youngs because Premiership games played during the 6N period are inevitably a little lower in intensity. Maybe only 5%, but at an elite level this is significant.

We also have to look at the balance of the backs overall. However we might judge the different 9/10 partnerships in isolation, we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that a Harrison/Toomua partnership deprives us of a world-class #12. Now if we could clone Toomua it would be a whole different discussion

[chris111]

Yes the premature recalls of Youngs and Tuilagi was a catastrophic error imo which cost us a playoff place,both clearly were not ready.

Youngs certainly didn’t seem ready. Manu is different, though; definitely ready and improving game on game, but it takes a lot of games to get back to 100% after the length of time out he had.

[BFG]

Mythological status is all we have to go on chris111 as the Harrison/Toomua partnership was broken up at the first opportunity, and Sam was playing so well he was overplayed and looked tired, I imagine him fully conditioned and playing regularly he might be even better, but we don't really know for certain as it never happens.
The only thing we can say with any real foundation is that the rest failed badly in that they played more and the play offs weren't even reached.

At no time did I claim the Harrison/Toomua partnership was not a success - the point I was trying to make was that it’s not easy to make a direct comparison with Ford/Youngs because Premiership games played during the 6N period are inevitably a little lower in intensity. Maybe only 5%, but at an elite level this is significant.

We also have to look at the balance of the backs overall. However we might judge the different 9/10 partnerships in isolation, we shouldn’t lose sight of the fact that a Harrison/Toomua partnership deprives us of a world-class #12. Now if we could clone Toomua it would be a whole different discussion

This time last year I would've agreed regarding the depriving of a world class 12 however I've seen enough to now cast doubt on that.
It's too complicated and the 10/12 axis didn't work enough, we ran out of space too quickly and too often.
It needs simplifying in my opinion.
The makings of a top class 23 capable of playing for 80 minutes whilst combining development are a very real possibility though instead of shoehorning certain individuals in to start constantly.

[Rugbyflanker]

It was quite simple really last season in that Ford hardly ever threatened the line or straightened it up,while Toomua often did,and constantly shovelled the ball on. Which one is easier to defend against?
Ben Youngs is often guilty of flapping his arms at the breakdown trying to buy a penalty,slowing the ball down letting the defence number up while Harrison is looking who to pass to a before he gets to the
breakdown. Again which one is easier to defend against?

[fortysix]

Manu is unfortunately a wonderful past relic of the long forgotten time when a bish bosh centre with Jona Lomu credentials was king.

Every side now has a South Sea Islander centre, , 18 stone in 11 seconds.

Ours has suffered horrible career threatening injuries, is naturally not a quick healer----------he most certainly does not take the best USA manufactured vitamin supplements accorded to us in Masters International Sport which enable us to heal twice as quickly---------, and is comparatively easy now for the top teams to contain.

Manu for England is a far far away possibility.

Lets all hope, for Manu and Tigers, as well as England, that happens.
But I think all Tigers supporters, either which way, realise that is fast becoming just a dream..

[Ian Cant]

I can only repeat what I have said before about George Ford having watched him live in most away games and all home games:
1) v Bath at home kicked to within 5 metres of the try line only for the forwards to mess up; this then happened regularly but particularly Irish and Falcons away where the bonus point wasn’t secured.
2) Yes, Toomua was fantastic in the 6 Nations period but played a similar game to Ford but, apart from Worcester, other teams were nowhere near full strength.
3) in the last game of the season v an almost full strength Sale team with a great home record, both Ford and Young’s showed the way we can play; heads up rugby with Ford allowed to play what was in front of him andDan
Cole, Mike Williams, Ellis Genge etc at their best.
4) it wasn’t George Ford’s fault that for much of the season our pack couldn’t bully the opposition which may still be a problem next season.
With some decent signings, and Bakewell now in place, hopefully the pack will be more physical and disciplined.
Looking forward to the new season which could see even more teams in contention for the top 6.

[Rugbyflanker]

Stopped reading at two,Toomua plays nothing like Ford apart from the long,rangy miss paces he's capable of throwing.

[h's dad]

Stopped reading at two,Toomua plays nothing like Ford apart from the long,rangy miss paces he's capable of throwing.

I stopped at one as Ford was kicking for touch when any other premiership kicker would have been racking up the three pointers.

[Cagey Tiger]

Stopped reading at two,Toomua plays nothing like Ford apart from the long,rangy miss paces he's capable of throwing.

I stopped at one as Ford was kicking for touch when any other premiership kicker would have been racking up the three pointers.

Danny Cipriani?

[Rugbyflanker]

Yeah but Wasps win their lineouts and are deadly off first phase ball,we can't even win our own ball!

[TTRITH]

If you have Ford on the bench, and Toomua at 10... who plays 12?

Owen? Tait? Worth?