Ford and Youngs

[Stu_F]

Oh come on,BY kicking and passing has been dreadful at times and Ford has been his usual Graeme Hick self.

Never rated Hick at 10 myself!

[teds]

Sir Clive seems to have an axe to grind. I think he'll have something negative to say whilst Jones is in charge.

I wonder if he is angling for the job. Caretaker role for 18 months? I am not sure he wanted to leave.
Great time to come back in on the back of a 7 run losing sequence.

[trendylfj]

Space is a premium that all teams at whatever level need to function and at the top level is even more important. You can create that one way, by quick ball - I'm sure everyone who knows anything about the game would agree. There are other ways I know - tying in a lot of players etc. The SH is the key whatever the situation even if his pack is going backwards but it is more difficult to achieve. BY does not provide as quick a ball as Sam but he is a better sniper. I don't think there is much to choose between them re box kicking or in defense. I would like to see Sam and George given a chance in pre-season and Ben given a rest - he has played almost year without a real break and hopefully he can get back to the BY we all love

[ellis9]

When fully fit the England backline should look like this:
Youngs
Ford
Lozowski
Tuilagi
Daly
May
Woodward

Leicester's is:
Youngs
Ford
Toomua
Tuilagi
Holmes
May
Veainu

[Rugbyflanker]

Harrison
Toomua
May
Owen
Tuilagi
Holmes
Veainu

[BFG]

Harrison
Toomua
May
Owen
Tuilagi
Holmes
Veainu

Yes or...
Harrison
Toomua
Worth
Tait
With a back three out of...
Holmes
May
Thompstone
Veainu
Olowafela

There is obviously space for Youngs and Ford amongst it but they have not done enough to be automatic choices in my opinion.
For a side a wanting to challenge how long do you continue to select individuals in good faith that is not returned?

[Rugbyflanker]

Yes BFG the needs of the team and balance have to come first. I genuinely hope I'm proved wrong but I just don't believe Ford and Toomua can play together and our forwards perform better off Harrison's much quicker service. Will Youngs and Ford be dropped? Not a chance but hey ho

[Cardiff Tig]

The six nations proved how good BY still is - there was a significant difference when Care was relied on to manage a game from the start.

The issue here is the coach, not the players.

There is a reason why Eddie Jones doesn't stay in a job more than 2 years. His management skills are great when he wants to shock a new team into improving, but shocking when any other approach is required.

[johnthegriff]

Harrison, Toomua in partnership did well against Quins and Worcester but remind me where did those teams finish in the Table. they also did well against Saracens who were missing many more players than we were on the day and were in the middle of a bad run. Johnson, Lancaster, Cockerill, Matt O'Connor and Jones have all selected Ben Youngs ahead of Sam Harrison and other scrum halves, I have a feeling that there judgement may be more relevant than some people on this message board. I did not see the last England game as I was travelling back from France but in the previous one I thought Daly was a liability at Fullback, Brown out of position on the wing and the inclusion of Shields in the squad without earning the right to be there was bound to affect the team spirit just as the inclusion of Burgess did in the last World Cup.
I was not happy when Jones was appointed to be in charge of England and said so, I had to admit I might be wrong after his early success, I now believe he is proving me right in the first place its just taken him longer to do it than I thought.

[trendylfj]

Harrison, Toomua in partnership did well against Quins and Worcester but remind me where did those teams finish in the Table. they also did well against Saracens who were missing many more players than we were on the day and were in the middle of a bad run. Johnson, Lancaster, Cockerill, Matt O'Connor and Jones have all selected Ben Youngs ahead of Sam Harrison and other scrum halves, I have a feeling that there judgement may be more relevant than some people on this message board. I did not see the last England game as I was travelling back from France but in the previous one I thought Daly was a liability at Fullback, Brown out of position on the wing and the inclusion of Shields in the squad without earning the right to be there was bound to affect the team spirit just as the inclusion of Burgess did in the last World Cup.
I was not happy when Jones was appointed to be in charge of England and said so, I had to admit I might be wrong after his early success, I now believe he is proving me right in the first place its just taken him longer to do it than I thought.

I have no issue in saying at their best Ben is better than Sam but on recent form do not think it is as clear cut as you make out. To justify your opinion by going back to Johnson, Lancaster and Cockerill times when clearly Ben was on top form and it could not be argued to pick Sam ahead of him has no relevance today. Ben is not the Ben of old and Sam, in my opinion is a better option at present. My opinion for what it is worth is that Ben needs some time off following the England tour and we should start preseason with Sam and reassess the situation at the start of the prem season.

[Leicestertinytiger]

I think that Youngs and Ford are still our best halfbacks pairing for next season. However, next season we definitely need to mix it up more and give Harrison, White and Hardwick more gametime. Let them know there is competitor for their places and hopefully this will bring out the best of them. Plus a gameplan like we played against Sale which plays to their strengths.

[BFG]

Harrison, Toomua in partnership did well against Quins and Worcester but remind me where did those teams finish in the Table. they also did well against Saracens who were missing many more players than we were on the day and were in the middle of a bad run. Johnson, Lancaster, Cockerill, Matt O'Connor and Jones have all selected Ben Youngs ahead of Sam Harrison and other scrum halves, I have a feeling that there judgement may be more relevant than some people on this message board. I did not see the last England game as I was travelling back from France but in the previous one I thought Daly was a liability at Fullback, Brown out of position on the wing and the inclusion of Shields in the squad without earning the right to be there was bound to affect the team spirit just as the inclusion of Burgess did in the last World Cup.
I was not happy when Jones was appointed to be in charge of England and said so, I had to admit I might be wrong after his early success, I now believe he is proving me right in the first place its just taken him longer to do it than I thought.

Not really an England issue, I'm more bothered by what I see at Leicester but there are similarities between the two as South Africa stumped England's forward dominance and the half backs struggled.
Quick and accurate ball in the right areas that Sam is capable of is service that forwards can thrive off but moreover he is willing to allow forwards to play in a more dominant mindset and Toomua to run the backs show and put it where it's wanted.
Youngs does the opposite, you be where I decide to give it, and the forwards look like puppies on a leash.
Given that Leicester don't have the biggest most dominant forward ball carrying pack in the Premiership or more crucially Europe and can't go out and buy all the biggest and best forwards then it comes back to the best ways to make it all work tactically as a team.
Sam's importance to the team rises significantly because of this and Toomua's leadership in direction worked really well with Sam in game management.
It's a difficult issue but one that I have little doubt will need addressing eventually.
The question is how long do Leicester be patient in building an entire team around two individuals rather than fitting two better suited individuals into the team!
Building an entire team around two individuals won't work unless you have an bottomless pit of money to get anyone you want to fit the jigsaw.
There is an alternative, and that is Youngs starts giving quicker more accurate service in the right areas for the team and Ford mans up and starts taking responsibility.
As an aside I think the Leicester skipper next season should be a forward who is well capable of giving the half backs a proper ear bashing should they start playing for themselves.

[wellstiger]

Sadly ,for England, Youngs and Ford were not on their own for poorish performances.
Stupid decision making and lack of commitment was spread across the team. Coupled with dumb infringing.
It would be wrong on these past two tests to single out our boys.May performed well and made the most of his opportunity.
Genge is out of 3rd test with knee injury. ????
Yes they could do with a rest before next season.
Yes we could utilise the whole Tigers squad and rotation is a must.
This is the job of the coaches.

Some thing tells me that all is not well in camp ENGLAND off field. Nothing to base this on but..........

[chris111]

My only interest in England Rugby is hoping Tigers in the squad get through matches and training without injury - at a Tigers level I think GF had a decent season for us whilst BY’s (when fit) was more patchy.

The short interlude of the Harrison-Toomua partnership is starting to reach mythological status for some on this Board. Yes, they performed well together, but as has been pointed out elsewhere it was a handful of games against 6N-depleted sides. I’m convinced that our current best back line remains:
Youngs
Ford
Toomua
Tuilagi
May
Holmes
Veainu

We have strong/solid backup in Owen, Tait, Harrison, Smith & Thompstone, and some excellent prospects coming through over the next couple of years.

It’s also great that we have a decent number of players who are versatile enough to cover 2-3 positions (Toomua, Veainu, Tait - and probably Holmes?), so overall I’m feeling positive about next season - largely because our BR options look significantly better than in 2017-18.

Others might judge me as one of those “red, white and green-tinted spectacle wearers” - but I can live with that.

[BFG]

Mythological status is all we have to go on chris111 as the Harrison/Toomua partnership was broken up at the first opportunity, and Sam was playing so well he was overplayed and looked tired, I imagine him fully conditioned and playing regularly he might be even better, but we don't really know for certain as it never happens.
The only thing we can say with any real foundation is that the rest failed badly in that they played more and the play offs weren't even reached.