Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

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sam16111986
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by sam16111986 »

chris111 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:25 pm
Rugbyflanker wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:11 pm I'm confident Bakewell will sort the forwards with a full preseason.
My original post mentioned the potential advantage of gaining an extra 2-3 weeks of pre-season work as a result of finishing 5th instead of 4th. Perhaps some intensive lineout drilling might be a constructive use of this time?!
Lineout? We've got much bigger problems than the lineout.

The defence has no line speed and doesn't guard well around the breakdown (see Falcons first try as a prime example). It's nowhere near a top 4 level of organisation.

The attacking patterns we run are strictly regimented and so basic we are left one dimensional. You see Ford trying to vary the game occasionally but no one really reads it because we are drilled to work the same play to the outside. You'll see amateur sides capable of more variation yet this is supposed to be our head coach's speciality.
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by RagingBull »

Act now and try to get Robertson?

Maybe offer Plumtree the world.......
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by Spicer »

We scraped in the last couple of years. The decline continues. As I'm not surprised I'm not really humiliated, just disappointed and annoyed.
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by Leicestertinytiger »

Did it really matter? Seemed to be almost a weight around the players necks and bringing them down in the end. Just couldn’t deal with the weight of expectation.

Yes we haven’t made the top 4, even if we had, it was the same squad of players and we would have lost in the semi. Doesn’t make a massive difference.

As long as we make the top 6 and get European rugby next year is the main thing, financially for the club. Hopefully this is the wake up call the club needs.
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by Soggypitch »

RagingBull wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:59 pm Losing the top 4 spot away at Sale = :censored: happens.

BUT
Losing the Top 4 spot home to Falcons AND potentially a top 6 spot awat at Sale = Humiliating.
Agreed bit it's worse than that, we just lost two absolutely crucial games at "fortress Welford Rd".

The quote marks are obviously very apt, regrettably.
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by mol2 »

Poor end to a poor season.

Poor defence in general and again Ford exposed.

Shocking TMO decision to end it all but the damage had been done by the shocking performances against the likes of Saints and Worcester.

O’Connor has had two goes at it and frankly is worse this time. There’s the door and don’t come back.
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by VernonAtrium »

My answer to the OP is, 'both.' Goneva's first try tonight - we've got to stop gifting opponents the first strike of a game. Time after time we give ourselves a mountain to climb. It used to be that we'd grind a result out despite being :censored: for half the game. Those days are long gone. This 'wake-up call' has been sounding for some time. Some fans and some players have heard it. However, rugby is a team game. EVERYONE needs to hear it.
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by VernonAtrium »

Yeah, 'New member', whatever. Skin it how you like, this message board is straight outta Geocities.
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by AngusMcCoatup »

Fortress Welford Road looks more like the Rollright Stones, our home record has stuffed Tigers this season SEVEN losses at home, and it could have been more.
With Wigglesworth on the touch not giving off side & forward passes and Pearce + TMO deciding the results it is more than humiliating..... :smt013 :smt010
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by Louis »

sam16111986 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:08 pm
chris111 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:25 pm
Rugbyflanker wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:11 pm I'm confident Bakewell will sort the forwards with a full preseason.
My original post mentioned the potential advantage of gaining an extra 2-3 weeks of pre-season work as a result of finishing 5th instead of 4th. Perhaps some intensive lineout drilling might be a constructive use of this time?!
Lineout? We've got much bigger problems than the lineout.

The defence has no line speed and doesn't guard well around the breakdown (see Falcons first try as a prime example). It's nowhere near a top 4 level of organisation.

The attacking patterns we run are strictly regimented and so basic we are left one dimensional.
You see Ford trying to vary the game occasionally but no one really reads it because we are drilled to work the same play to the outside. You'll see amateur sides capable of more variation yet this is supposed to be our head coach's speciality.
I've bolded the bit I agree with very, very strongly. Local, club, or international, it doesn't matter. Good defensive line speed, with a well drilled defence is a huge contributor to, if not winning, at least "not losing" (if you see the difference) games.

Were it me, I'd start there. Put the fear of Martin Johnson* into other teams by knocking them on their behinds every time they get the ball. I'd even take a few honourable losses (heresy I know) by tiny margins if other teams feared to play us. I am beginning to think the Leicester coin is well beyond spent on that score unfortunately. Teams come to WR and play us away with their heads up because they know they'll "survive" the encounter. A score here or there, and time for a song on the bus.

I'd have to look the stats up, but from memory most of our successful seasons since professionalism have been associated with comparatively low Points Against (certainly tries against). That's not as trite as it sounds, a team can be porous but very high scoring.

Rush/blitz defences are risky, dog legs, gaps etc all can form and allow break away tries. In years gone past we've exploited this. But it's a lot less risky than allowing teams to play AT you and then having to pull off heroics to stop them. Take Newcastle's last score (Ref/TMO aside), it was inevitable. Phase after phase of attritional play. Inches gained each ruck. Tigers were, if not heroic, actually good during that last minute or two, we did the job of extending those phases past the dying seconds of the game. Newcastle didn't go wide (why? I think our cover was very slightly intimidating, although I also think this was an error at two points from Falcons), and we defended well.

But at >80 mins, bodies and brains are tired, we'd spent ~10 mins letting them get their head, build their confidence. That try (or another like it, or another wide) were a dead cert unless we regained possession. I wouldn't want my body on the line like Tigers' bodies were in that part of the game, but we should not have been there at all. 10 mins to go we should be conservative, retain ball, manage (slight?) lead, smack the opposition back every time. Sure BPs and such are season changers, but you earn those, you don't deserve them, and frankly against Falcons 10 mins left was not the time to even consider it.

Then, as Sam says, we go for heads up, attacking rugby. You don't just earn the right to go wide, you earn the right to attack (breakaways and interceptions aside). We're not earning this. We're not retaining our ball. As others have mentioned our half backs look a bit at sea. That's my twopenn'orth. Build a monster defence, train attack in the background, but focus on caulking the hull first, stop the leaks, then try to pirate the entire Carribean!

Crikey, those metaphors got well out of hand.


*Others might say "God", I know who I am more scared of. Martin Johnson exists for starters...
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by thebearisstilldeano »

Back in 2014 on October 6 I posted this in response to a forum topic called "The definition of Insanity"

I feel it warrants a second airing after the last two seasons and in the light of this topic.

"A question.

Is part of our "insanity" a fixation on winning this and every season?

Have we perhaps become wrapped up too tightly in the expectation that every season we will be "there or there abouts"?

Looking at the teams that have emerged as front runners (and have perhaps dare I say it started to overtake us) over the last few years, both domestically and in Europe, what I see are teams who have developed and are delivering on a long term plan.

Sarries - Barf - Stains - (to a lesser extent, but impressive non the less Exeter) - any and almost all French teams - Leinster - all are teams with a long term vision. This vision is not (or at least was not) about winning in previous seasons but about building strength to give dominance in the future. In some cases this is starting to pay off.

In contrast our focus appears to me to be "get through this season at the top because failure is not an option". This means short term signings to fill gaps in the squad (often key positions), keeping some players beyond their "sell by date", focussing on a push at the end of every season at the expense of the start, and even perhaps our pre-season training and player conditioning (which I suspect might have an impact on our injury record, which year on year seems to have the same pattern).

Many of us (Tigerburnie, Big Dai for instance) have been on the forum since it was set up and I know have been following the team for an age and can, I'm sure see patterns over the longer term.

We remember the defeat in Cardiff in '97 - and how much it hurt.

We really were shambolic, from the pre match warm up to the end of the match. But it seemed to spur on a culture change in the club - the emergence of a vision which drove the club to produce a team which became dominant three years later with the first of back to back HCs and became the team everyone looked to for inspiration as to what "professional " meant. It didn't happen over night but there was a vision which drove the club forward and developments within it with 52 successive home wins and a stack of silver-wear.

I think for instance Deano stepped down as club captain at the end of the 97 season and Johno took over, we saw the emergence of Lewis Moody from bench warmer to first team regular, recruitment of Pat Howard, Ben Kay, Martin Corry and changes in coaching - happy to be corrected.

My premise is that I believe those golden years then became a habit and the fear of losing that dominance became over time the driving force in the club rather than the desire to reach the top. In short, having reached the vision, we lost sight of the need to create a new one.

Consequently maybe the pressure to win every season (and I'm as guilty here as any of us) puts pressures on the club to set the horizon too close rather than looking further ahead? Perhaps the longer term focus has been on other aspects of developing the club at the expense of the playing side?

Where are the long term strategic signings? Where is the long term coaching evolution to develop our style of play? Where is the long term development of the club culture - other than "this is the Leicester way" or a strap line that we are "world class"?

I'm not saying this is THE answer to our current woes (a few fit players would help), but we do seem to have a pattern of results over recent seasons and over all outcomes, which are not suggesting we are travelling in the same way as other clubs who are "going somewhere".

Lots of people have called for sackings as a result of our current poor form - but this is really a call for change in the short term (and we have seen it every year for the past four or five). Perhaps the real change we need is to accept a lower return for a season or two with a view to establishing another four or five year dynasty of success (both domestic and European) in the medium to long term?

Not trying to start arguments - just chatting rugby like."


2018 update - I still hold this view - except now feel a sacking is in order. IMHO we need a new Chief Exec to drive a clear vision for the future properly from the top of the club.
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sam16111986
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by sam16111986 »

Louis wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:00 am
sam16111986 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:08 pm
chris111 wrote: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:25 pm

My original post mentioned the potential advantage of gaining an extra 2-3 weeks of pre-season work as a result of finishing 5th instead of 4th. Perhaps some intensive lineout drilling might be a constructive use of this time?!
Lineout? We've got much bigger problems than the lineout.

The defence has no line speed and doesn't guard well around the breakdown (see Falcons first try as a prime example). It's nowhere near a top 4 level of organisation.

The attacking patterns we run are strictly regimented and so basic we are left one dimensional.
You see Ford trying to vary the game occasionally but no one really reads it because we are drilled to work the same play to the outside. You'll see amateur sides capable of more variation yet this is supposed to be our head coach's speciality.
I've bolded the bit I agree with very, very strongly. Local, club, or international, it doesn't matter. Good defensive line speed, with a well drilled defence is a huge contributor to, if not winning, at least "not losing" (if you see the difference) games.

Were it me, I'd start there. Put the fear of Martin Johnson* into other teams by knocking them on their behinds every time they get the ball. I'd even take a few honourable losses (heresy I know) by tiny margins if other teams feared to play us. I am beginning to think the Leicester coin is well beyond spent on that score unfortunately. Teams come to WR and play us away with their heads up because they know they'll "survive" the encounter. A score here or there, and time for a song on the bus.

I'd have to look the stats up, but from memory most of our successful seasons since professionalism have been associated with comparatively low Points Against (certainly tries against). That's not as trite as it sounds, a team can be porous but very high scoring.

Rush/blitz defences are risky, dog legs, gaps etc all can form and allow break away tries. In years gone past we've exploited this. But it's a lot less risky than allowing teams to play AT you and then having to pull off heroics to stop them. Take Newcastle's last score (Ref/TMO aside), it was inevitable. Phase after phase of attritional play. Inches gained each ruck. Tigers were, if not heroic, actually good during that last minute or two, we did the job of extending those phases past the dying seconds of the game. Newcastle didn't go wide (why? I think our cover was very slightly intimidating, although I also think this was an error at two points from Falcons), and we defended well.

But at >80 mins, bodies and brains are tired, we'd spent ~10 mins letting them get their head, build their confidence. That try (or another like it, or another wide) were a dead cert unless we regained possession. I wouldn't want my body on the line like Tigers' bodies were in that part of the game, but we should not have been there at all. 10 mins to go we should be conservative, retain ball, manage (slight?) lead, smack the opposition back every time. Sure BPs and such are season changers, but you earn those, you don't deserve them, and frankly against Falcons 10 mins left was not the time to even consider it.

Then, as Sam says, we go for heads up, attacking rugby. You don't just earn the right to go wide, you earn the right to attack (breakaways and interceptions aside). We're not earning this. We're not retaining our ball. As others have mentioned our half backs look a bit at sea. That's my twopenn'orth. Build a monster defence, train attack in the background, but focus on caulking the hull first, stop the leaks, then try to pirate the entire Carribean!

Crikey, those metaphors got well out of hand.


*Others might say "God", I know who I am more scared of. Martin Johnson exists for starters...
My point about the attack was that heads up rugby is not encouraged and the boys seem to heavily drilled to play this awful one dimensional style of play. When Ford does look for it because he knows what we're doing isn't working there are few around him capable of reading what he wants and even fewer capable of seeing what he's seeing. If we're going to play a heavily structured game plan we've got to introduce more variety because we are really easy to defend against.
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by PCA26 »

If by some miracle we finish on same points as Newcastle, what is qualification for play offs based on , number of wins or results between the 2 teams ?
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by Sydneytiger »

I have left it 24 hours to comment on last night so I could at least give a considered opinion. I went to twickenham to see the Bath game and came away with a real optimism that we would make playoffs and give it a real go but a few weeks and 2 home losses later I feel annoyed, frustrated and just generally hacked off.

A loss to Saints who were fighting for their contracts was just about ok knowing we had falcons to come and we made chances but couldn’t take them but last night we seemed to go back the dark days of December. We supposedly had our best team on the park but it didn’t work. How such an supposedly experienced team let a 10 point lead slip with 12/13mins to go against what seemed to me a was just an average Falcons team with their 3rd choice fly half on the pitch is beyond me. The ref seemed out of his depth but it doesn’t hide the fact that we should have been good enough to win anyway.

We need a bigger pack to get the yards to suck in the defence so that Toomua, May and Veianu have the space to create the tries. How many times last night did our wingers have less than 2m to work in with 2 defenders in front of them. We aren’t going to power through in these situations unless you have a big fast pacific island winger on the team who will get 5m plus every time he gets the ball. We used to but he was doing it for the falcons last night.

I am sure there won’t be a coaching change for next year and I am sure the players gave it all and are equally hacked off but it’s just a sad end to the season. Watched Glasgow v Edinburgh tonight to try and enjoy watching the game again, v entertaining!
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Re: Finishing outside the top 4: humiliating blow to confidence or useful wake-up call?

Post by jamie1880 »

PCA26 wrote: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:11 pm If by some miracle we finish on same points as Newcastle, what is qualification for play offs based on , number of wins or results between the 2 teams ?
Wins first. Newcastle are firmly safe in the playoffs with 14 wins to our 12. Need a Saints win at the Ricoh and then top four is in sight, just. The chances of that are very very very very slim, but you never know
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