Tigers v Quins

[h's dad]

ford's on the same money virtually as Burns so not sure how you would get the 2 World class centres or one centre and a forward.

Not quite sure about that RB, and also there's the fee paid by Tigers to Bath to facilitate the transfer which, as well as being a cost, should also be included in the salary cap unless the lawyers claim to have found a loophole.

There will be 100K max (From what i gather Burns is on around 400K Ford 450K) between the 2 which would only really get you a average player.

And Transfer fees between two clubs are not included in the cap so no lawyers needed or loophole.

Not sure that Burns would have been on quite that much if he had been retained but I'll agree that the difference may have been only enough to acquire a player of modest international standard.

From premiership rugby:
Amounts that are Included

Salary, wage, fee, remuneration etc.
Bonus (match, win, year-end etc.)
National insurance
Loan (not paid back in full before end of SCY loan was made).
Child support / maintenance /school fees
Accommodation or holiday cost
Pension (incl. annuities)
Image Rights payments
Payment in connection with promotional, media or endorsement work
Payment for off-field activities for or on behalf of club
Signing on fee, transfer payment, relocation allowance or payment linked to transfer
Accommodation, holidays, cars, match tickets (other than 4 per match), clothing (other than training kit, official club blazers and other club wear), travel, membership fees, food and drink (other than at matches and training)
Payment in kind a player would not have received were not for his involvement with a Club
Redundancy/Compromise etc.
Agent Fees plus VAT & NI
Any 3rd Party & Connected Party (e.g. sponsor) payment unless demonstrated separate

Amounts that are Excluded

International match fees, bonuses, etc.
Legitimate and reasonable expenses
Player’s personal private medical insurance including Rugby Care scheme
Benefit Year (testimonial)
Education fees (e.g. university tuition fees, joinery course fees etc.) for the player
A season long Loan Player x 3 players
A player who is Injured for the entire season

There are exclusions if payments are directly between clubs but I admit that I don't know the detail of the arrangements, the involvement of agents or the paper trail.

[RagingBull]

Not quite sure about that RB, and also there's the fee paid by Tigers to Bath to facilitate the transfer which, as well as being a cost, should also be included in the salary cap unless the lawyers claim to have found a loophole.

There will be 100K max (From what i gather Burns is on around 400K Ford 450K) between the 2 which would only really get you a average player.

And Transfer fees between two clubs are not included in the cap so no lawyers needed or loophole.

Not sure that Burns would have been on quite that much if he had been retained but I'll agree that the difference may have been only enough to acquire a player of modest international standard.

From premiership rugby:
Amounts that are Included

Salary, wage, fee, remuneration etc.
Bonus (match, win, year-end etc.)
National insurance
Loan (not paid back in full before end of SCY loan was made).
Child support / maintenance /school fees
Accommodation or holiday cost
Pension (incl. annuities)
Image Rights payments
Payment in connection with promotional, media or endorsement work
Payment for off-field activities for or on behalf of club
Signing on fee, transfer payment, relocation allowance or payment linked to transfer
Accommodation, holidays, cars, match tickets (other than 4 per match), clothing (other than training kit, official club blazers and other club wear), travel, membership fees, food and drink (other than at matches and training)
Payment in kind a player would not have received were not for his involvement with a Club
Redundancy/Compromise etc.
Agent Fees plus VAT & NI
Any 3rd Party & Connected Party (e.g. sponsor) payment unless demonstrated separate

Amounts that are Excluded

International match fees, bonuses, etc.
Legitimate and reasonable expenses
Player’s personal private medical insurance including Rugby Care scheme
Benefit Year (testimonial)
Education fees (e.g. university tuition fees, joinery course fees etc.) for the player
A season long Loan Player x 3 players
A player who is Injured for the entire season

There are exclusions if payments are directly between clubs but I admit that I don't know the detail of the arrangements, the involvement of agents or the paper trail.

Subject to Regulation 2.3(b), any signing-on fee, transfer payment, relocation
allowance or expense in connection with the transfer of a Player to any club or any
payment in connection with the loan of a Player to any club or any other lump sum
or option payment. For the avoidance of doubt:
(i) any transfer fees paid by a Club directly to another rugby club or to an official
foreign rugby union in connection with the transfer of a Player to the firstmentioned
Club shall be disregarded and shall not count as "Salary" for the
purpose of the Regulations. However, any payment or arrangement of any kind
other than for the direct and sole benefit of the transferring rugby club or to an
official foreign rugby union and/or which benefits a Player in any way
whatsoever will be deemed "Salary" and shall be counted for the purposes of the
Senior Ceiling or Academy Ceiling;

Basically Tigers paid Bath directly a transfer fee and therefore it doesn't come into the cap. if any of that money had gone to Ford then it would be classed as cap.

[h's dad]

There will be 100K max (From what i gather Burns is on around 400K Ford 450K) between the 2 which would only really get you a average player.

And Transfer fees between two clubs are not included in the cap so no lawyers needed or loophole.

Not sure that Burns would have been on quite that much if he had been retained but I'll agree that the difference may have been only enough to acquire a player of modest international standard.

From premiership rugby:
Amounts that are Included

Salary, wage, fee, remuneration etc.
Bonus (match, win, year-end etc.)
National insurance
Loan (not paid back in full before end of SCY loan was made).
Child support / maintenance /school fees
Accommodation or holiday cost
Pension (incl. annuities)
Image Rights payments
Payment in connection with promotional, media or endorsement work
Payment for off-field activities for or on behalf of club
Signing on fee, transfer payment, relocation allowance or payment linked to transfer
Accommodation, holidays, cars, match tickets (other than 4 per match), clothing (other than training kit, official club blazers and other club wear), travel, membership fees, food and drink (other than at matches and training)
Payment in kind a player would not have received were not for his involvement with a Club
Redundancy/Compromise etc.
Agent Fees plus VAT & NI
Any 3rd Party & Connected Party (e.g. sponsor) payment unless demonstrated separate

Amounts that are Excluded

International match fees, bonuses, etc.
Legitimate and reasonable expenses
Player’s personal private medical insurance including Rugby Care scheme
Benefit Year (testimonial)
Education fees (e.g. university tuition fees, joinery course fees etc.) for the player
A season long Loan Player x 3 players
A player who is Injured for the entire season

There are exclusions if payments are directly between clubs but I admit that I don't know the detail of the arrangements, the involvement of agents or the paper trail.

Subject to Regulation 2.3(b), any signing-on fee, transfer payment, relocation
allowance or expense in connection with the transfer of a Player to any club or any
payment in connection with the loan of a Player to any club or any other lump sum
or option payment. For the avoidance of doubt:
(i) any transfer fees paid by a Club directly to another rugby club or to an official
foreign rugby union in connection with the transfer of a Player to the firstmentioned
Club shall be disregarded and shall not count as "Salary" for the
purpose of the Regulations. However, any payment or arrangement of any kind
other than for the direct and sole benefit of the transferring rugby club or to an
official foreign rugby union and/or which benefits a Player in any way
whatsoever will be deemed "Salary" and shall be counted for the purposes of the
Senior Ceiling or Academy Ceiling;

Basically Tigers paid Bath directly a transfer fee and therefore it doesn't come into the cap. if any of that money had gone to Ford then it would be classed as cap.

Thank you, as I said I didn't know the exact nature of the 'transfer' or paper trail or the final destination. I understand that in soccer for example these things can go through agents et al which would muddy the waters from the point of view of the SCR. I am grateful for your, what must be, inside information.

[BFG]

So.......Matt and George? Or Matt or George? That, for me, is an important question.

Toomua for me!
Ford has massive talent but Toomua is Farrell like in the size of his cajones!
Toomua did grow into it and teased the defensive line like I have not seen this season!
On yesterday's display and given Manu's injury record I think Leicester have made a massive recruitment gaffe, we should be watching Toomua at 10 along with Freddie, with the Ford money spent on two world class centres, or one centre and a forward!

ford's on the same money virtually as Burns so not sure how you would get the 2 World class centres or one centre and a forward.

It's simply an assumption that Ford x 2 might be significantly more costly than Burns x 1!
Seems a fair enough assumption to me, one Ford is a regular international and the other costs too much however much it is!
I don't know what a top quality centre costs, I suppose it depends on how clever the recruitment is!
I assume that you know what everyone earns to know "ford's on the same money virtually as Burns", I always assumed that type of information was private between those concerned!
I'm about as clued up on what they earn as a virgin on prom night, but you are the man!

[johnthegriff]

What one player gets is irrelevant the trick is managing the whole budget over the fifteen positions. It stands to reason that a current many cap international player for a major rugby playing country will be on more money than a non international, it maybe that a player of different rugby background may have the star quality that gets him a high wage, but a player who is there as fourth choice in a position not expected to be in the team except when desperate will be on fairly low wages. The cap is what it is, any team needs a minimum of four complete front rows and probably development backup. I expect Dan Cole is a high wage earner, Genge, Bateman, Cilliers and Mulipola will not be cheap that does not leave a lot to spend on other props without affecting other positions.
When Ford was signed and we knew that Freddie and Owen were leaving the question was whether George and Joe were the equal of the two departures bearing in mind that Toomua could play 10. Injuries as ever got in the way, (Freddie and Owen have missed games for their new clubs). Joe Ford whilst not perhaps a quality Premiership fly half is a good goal kicker and has not been as bad as some would have us believe, Gareth Owen when fit enables Matt T to cover 10 and I think Hardwick and Worth may move ahead of Joe in the pecking order, Hardwick is an excellent kicker.