Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

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fleabane
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Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by fleabane » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:50 pm

Cockerill, Cockerill and O’Connor, and O’Connor have failed to win in France in thirteen of the last fourteen encounters.

Is this failure to win in France a common failure of English clubs?

Is it down to failing to appoint coaches from outside the “Tigers family” who could have coached abroad and have a wider exposure to European rugby?

Is it just that the European Championship has never been a priority?

Saracens have proved that winning the Aviva and European competitions is possible. ( I know there is the money argument which always gets in the way of Sarries discussions, but it cannot be the only reason for their success. But let’s keep the discussion about Tigers).
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Flash
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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by Flash » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:30 pm

France seem capable of having big expensive squads and I don't think are that affected by internationals.

The Pro 14 seems to be a training league (this isn't meant as disparaging I just couldn't think of a better way to put it) for the international teams (Ireland, Wales and Scotland anyway) so the players are better managed for the big games which Europe is. I think it was the scarlets scrum half has played half the league games as YBY. We can't afford to do that in the AP whereas I imagine in the Pro 14 as at least 10? of the teams manage their players playing time by orders of the national team they are probably planned to a greater level and maybe even it out a bit.

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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by Flash » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:31 pm

That and we've been off the boil in the AP for a while to Europe wasn't exactly going to change that.

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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by BFG » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:45 pm

For the answer to the OP I think it's needed to look at other English clubs that have managed to do well in Europe, and that is Saracens.
They have the ability to spot high quality potential, Itoje, Isiekwe, Vincent Koch, Michael Rhodes etc.
When we are being spoon fed stories about the likes of Betts after not retaining players like Balmain and whilst Sarries are spotting potential like Vincent Koch then you just know that they haven't got a clue!
Leicester couldn't notice that level of potential if it jumped up and smacked them currently!

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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by Spicer » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:56 pm

Because we just aren't very good

Tiger93
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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by Tiger93 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:15 pm

Flash wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:31 pm
That and we've been off the boil in the AP for a while to Europe wasn't exactly going to change that.
Bang on. Add on the fact our recruitment has been below average and coaching sub-standard for a while now and there we have it!

ourla
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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by ourla » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:20 pm

fleabane wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:50 pm
Cockerill, Cockerill and O’Connor, and O’Connor have failed to win in France in thirteen of the last fourteen encounters.

Is this failure to win in France a common failure of English clubs?
You entitled the thread "Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?" and then you've immediately changed the question to whether English clubs fail to win in France. What question do you want to ask?

In answer to the thread title: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult? Err, they don't... particularly. Look at their record, compare it against others, then come back with some hard evidence to say we do.

In answer to failure of English clubs failing to win in France: It seems to be 'accepted' that French clubs travel badly but perform at home. That said a bit like playing on plastic there's always seemed to be a degree of fait accompli from our camp when it's comes to those matches. What came first, the chicken or the egg.
fleabane wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:50 pm
Is it down to failing to appoint coaches from outside the “Tigers family” who could have coached abroad and have a wider exposure to European rugby?
How much exposure did the Saracens coaching staff have before they won back to back cups. Likewise Toulon and Leinster before them?
fleabane wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:50 pm
Is it just that the European Championship has never been a priority?
As far as I know it's always been a high priority.
fleabane wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:50 pm
Saracens have proved that winning the Aviva and European competitions is possible. ( I know there is the money argument which always gets in the way of Sarries discussions, but it cannot be the only reason for their success. But let’s keep the discussion about Tigers).
There are lots of ingredients. I know it's the same thing everybody is talking about but there is no getting away from it - some top class back row performers is a big one.

TBH right now our competitiveness in Europe is a bit of a side issue. We are now in a fight to qualify for next years compy. Saturday is just about pride and confidence.
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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by sapajo » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:08 pm

Tigers do not have sufficient quality players in form and in depth or any quality coaches to succeed in Europe let alone the premiership.
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fleabane
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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by fleabane » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm

Ourla, m’y question is specific to Tigers, but like any discussion, comparison to similar enterprises is useful. What do others do, or don’t do that we can learn from. As far as our record is concerned, thirteen failures to win out of fourteen shows me that Tigers DOES have a problem.

European success may not be a current priority because of the teams performances in the Aviva, but assuming we can make the top six, it becomes an ongoing one. Planning for the future, whether it be through performance reviews, player, tactics and coach assessment of suitability, priorities and so on are essential if we are not to make it fourteen out of fifteen by repeating the same approach again.

Blaming it on money is a cop out. Identifying squad inadequacies is not.
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ourla
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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by ourla » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:00 pm

fleabane wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm
Ourla, m’y question is specific to Tigers, but like any discussion, comparison to similar enterprises is useful. What do others do, or don’t do that we can learn from. As far as our record is concerned, thirteen failures to win out of fourteen shows me that Tigers DOES have a problem.
Winning away in Europe is difficult (1 win, 1 draw from 10 matches last weekend). There were 2 the last one (us and Benneton losing at home). In France particularly - happened once this season - with Exeter winning by 3 in Montpelier.
fleabane wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:14 pm
European success may not be a current priority because of the teams performances in the Aviva, but assuming we can make the top six, it becomes an ongoing one. Planning for the future, whether it be through performance reviews, player, tactics and coach assessment of suitability, priorities and so on are essential if we are not to make it fourteen out of fifteen by repeating the same approach again.
MOC says he's going to improve the squad. Coaching is being looked at. Whether we have faith in them is another matter.

In summary: Europe is difficult, it's meant to be difficult. If we get better, it will get easier. But no doubt the other 19 clubs will be saying the same thing. I don't think there is anything intrinsic that makes it harder for Tigers than others. Just my opinion.
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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by Robespierre » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:29 pm

English clubs in general have struggled this year, partly for the same old reason that players seem to play more matches in the Premiership than in the Super14, or whatever it's called. This season, there'll be a good chance that Tigers won't qualify for the next Champions' Cup and will play in the Challenge Cup instead, which for a club of Leicester 's standing would be an embarrassment. There are comparisons with Stade Toulousain who having failed to be in the end of season play-offs last year for the first time in 45 years and have already been eliminated from this season's Challenge Cup, represents a shift of major proportions. Let's not be surprised if Leicester do likewise.

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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by Tiglon » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 am

Because the Tigers team is not currently as good as most others in Europe.

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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by Roly » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:50 am

Tiglon wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 am
Because the Tigers team is not currently as good as most others in Europe.
It isn't, but the disappointing thing is, it could be. Could be right up there.
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Tiglon
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Re: Why does Tigers find Europe so difficult?

Post by Tiglon » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:07 am

[/i]
Roly wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:50 am
Tiglon wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:42 am
Because the Tigers team is not currently as good as most others in Europe.
It isn't, but the disappointing thing is, it could be. Could be right up there.
Should be right up there given the profile of the club and the resources available since the game turned professional.

Still, that's sport - others have done things better than us and deserve to be where they are.

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