Shazam

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BFG
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Re: Shazam

Post by BFG » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:36 pm

Tigerbeat wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:31 pm
I find this quite an amazing thread. Many have been calling for Ben Youngs to be dropped and Sam to be given a chance. He is given a chance and it was not a great day at the office....it was not a great day at the office for the team. Picking on Sam seems to be a bit unfair. The team, players and coaches could be held more responsible for the result yesterday rather than one individual. Play as a team, lose as a team and take full responsibility for the result.
Sam has always guven his all and is a local lad that has progressed from the Academy. The team that played yesterday was a scratch side who had hardly played together....they created chances, had possession but failed.
Rugby is a TEAM game.
:smt023
Finally, the voice of reason!
If the rest played with the physical commitment that Harrison does then Leicester might not be quite so bad!
Also if they took a leaf out of Harrison's book then they might not be so greedy wanting more for less and Leicester might have a few more quid to spread around the squad!

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Re: Shazam

Post by Frankers » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:20 pm

Top bloke, loyal to the club and good player when the team is structured and working well.

Very wrong to single him out right now.

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Re: Shazam

Post by G.K » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:40 pm

Frankers wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:20 pm
Top bloke, loyal to the club and good player when the team is structured and working well.

Very wrong to single him out right now.
I agree, totally wrong person to scapegoat :smt009

Attention should be turned to those who have regularly underperforned.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

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Re: Shazam

Post by Hot_Charlie » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:58 pm

ABClub wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 12:12 pm
Similarly academy grads such as Charlie Thacker should be getting first XV exposure in a midfield of G Ford-Toomua-Thacker. George Worth should be getting chances at 15 with May and TV as his wingers to marshal. A talent like Will Evans should be getting rotated with a quality, experienced openside in a balanced back row.
There's an argument that maybe getting the ball in Worth's hands at 13 could be valuable and offer a point of difference to the other options of Manu or Smith.

mol2
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Re: Shazam

Post by mol2 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:47 pm

Let’s be blunt it is almost pointless debating the merits of the backs when our real problems are from 4 to 8 which leaves the backs with no space to work in and the scrum half with back foot ball.

7 may be better covered with O'Connor and the development of Evans but the locks, 6s and 8s have been out-muscled by pretty well every other Premiership side in the loose, rucks and mauls. Had it not been for the power of the front row in the scrums and the flash backs in the early part of the season on hard pitches, we could have been in the relegation dogfight, we are playing that badly.

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Re: Shazam

Post by Tiglon » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:46 am

Tigerbeat wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:31 pm
I find this quite an amazing thread. Many have been calling for Ben Youngs to be dropped and Sam to be given a chance. He is given a chance and it was not a great day at the office....it was not a great day at the office for the team. Picking on Sam seems to be a bit unfair. The team, players and coaches could be held more responsible for the result yesterday rather than one individual. Play as a team, lose as a team and take full responsibility for the result.
Sam has always given his all and is a local lad that has progressed from the Academy. The team that played yesterday was a scratch side who had hardly played together....they created chances, had possession but failed.
Rugby is a TEAM game.
I'm not sure anyone is blaming Harrison for the defeat against Castres, which would be utterly ridiculous, or any other defeat this season for that matter.

Even if he was being singled out, why is that less acceptable than "picking on" MOC? Others such as Smith, Manu, Ben Youngs, Joe Ford etc also get targeted on a regular basis.

The fact is, Harrison does not stack up terribly well in the list of Premiership back up 9's - but he's a solid player who can fill the 9 gap when needed without doing much wrong, offers stability in his role behind Youngs, and probably doesn't take up much of the salary cap. There's nothing wrong with saying that - it is what it is.

I think, when as you say so many have argued he should replace Youngs as first choice 9, it's fair to offer a counter opinion.

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Re: Shazam

Post by BFG » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:08 am

Sam seemed to try too hard for me.
Ben recently just seems to think we are rubbish!
Who can blame either of them really!
When you are relying on the 9's for leadership then you are in trouble, game management yes, but leadership should be all over.
Leadership and ball management are very different and a 9 needs to be focused on his management and not the entire team in my opinion!
Too much going on up top!

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Re: Shazam

Post by Roly » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:28 am

BFG wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:08 am

Ben recently just seems to think we are rubbish!
Well, its all relative isn't it - according to someone on here, he's the best 9 in the world, so with that kind of pedigree, you might expect him to believe that the team isn't worthy of his participation.

:smt046
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.

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Re: Shazam

Post by Crumblies » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:38 am

Tiglon wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:46 am
I'm not sure anyone is blaming Harrison for the defeat against Castres, which would be utterly ridiculous, or any other defeat this season for that matter.

Even if he was being singled out, why is that less acceptable than "picking on" MOC? Others such as Smith, Manu, Ben Youngs, Joe Ford etc also get targeted on a regular basis.

The fact is, Harrison does not stack up terribly well in the list of Premiership back up 9's - but he's a solid player who can fill the 9 gap when needed without doing much wrong, offers stability in his role behind Youngs, and probably doesn't take up much of the salary cap. There's nothing wrong with saying that - it is what it is.

I think, when as you say so many have argued he should replace Youngs as first choice 9, it's fair to offer a counter opinion.
Now that's the voice of reason!

I certainly wasn't singling Sam Harrison out. I admire is loyalty and commitment to the team. But I simply do not see the quality scrum half that many on others this forum seem to see. It was the original poster of this thread who did that.

Sadly what Sunday's performance showed up all too well was that far too many of our second string players are simply not good enough. And some of those are now past the point where they will get better, rather they are going to get worse.

So in my view its time to part company, nothing personal it's business.

Roly
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Re: Shazam

Post by Roly » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:53 am

Crumblies wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:38 am
Tiglon wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:46 am
I'm not sure anyone is blaming Harrison for the defeat against Castres, which would be utterly ridiculous, or any other defeat this season for that matter.

Even if he was being singled out, why is that less acceptable than "picking on" MOC? Others such as Smith, Manu, Ben Youngs, Joe Ford etc also get targeted on a regular basis.

The fact is, Harrison does not stack up terribly well in the list of Premiership back up 9's - but he's a solid player who can fill the 9 gap when needed without doing much wrong, offers stability in his role behind Youngs, and probably doesn't take up much of the salary cap. There's nothing wrong with saying that - it is what it is.

I think, when as you say so many have argued he should replace Youngs as first choice 9, it's fair to offer a counter opinion.

Sadly what Sunday's performance showed up all too well was that far too many of our second string players are simply not good enough. And some of those are now past the point where they will get better, rather they are going to get worse.
The tragedy is that prior to the start of the season and when on a winning run (remember them?) we had reason to be optimistic that finally, Tigers had quality strength in depth.

It is apparent that Tigers do not have strength in depth, let alone anything of real quality. Where did it go? Was it ever there? If it was, it seems any quality has been coached out of it. Other teams seem to be able to field able replacements, why can't Tigers?
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.

BFG
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Re: Shazam

Post by BFG » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:10 am

Roly wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:28 am
BFG wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:08 am

Ben recently just seems to think we are rubbish!
Well, its all relative isn't it - according to someone on here, he's the best 9 in the world, so with that kind of pedigree, you might expect him to believe that the team isn't worthy of his participation.

:smt046
Yes well it's just an assumption of the current thought process going on and not a fact, but folk do seem to be under the impression that changing the 9 or the 10 will swing things, and it won't, there are deeper issues!

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Re: Shazam

Post by Tiglon » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:22 pm

Roly wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:53 am
Crumblies wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:38 am
Tiglon wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:46 am
I'm not sure anyone is blaming Harrison for the defeat against Castres, which would be utterly ridiculous, or any other defeat this season for that matter.

Even if he was being singled out, why is that less acceptable than "picking on" MOC? Others such as Smith, Manu, Ben Youngs, Joe Ford etc also get targeted on a regular basis.

The fact is, Harrison does not stack up terribly well in the list of Premiership back up 9's - but he's a solid player who can fill the 9 gap when needed without doing much wrong, offers stability in his role behind Youngs, and probably doesn't take up much of the salary cap. There's nothing wrong with saying that - it is what it is.

I think, when as you say so many have argued he should replace Youngs as first choice 9, it's fair to offer a counter opinion.

Sadly what Sunday's performance showed up all too well was that far too many of our second string players are simply not good enough. And some of those are now past the point where they will get better, rather they are going to get worse.
The tragedy is that prior to the start of the season and when on a winning run (remember them?) we had reason to be optimistic that finally, Tigers had quality strength in depth.

It is apparent that Tigers do not have strength in depth, let alone anything of real quality. Where did it go? Was it ever there? If it was, it seems any quality has been coached out of it. Other teams seem to be able to field able replacements, why can't Tigers?
I think perhaps we overestimated the quality of our squad, particularly 4-8 and underestimated the importance of that area.

Leicestertinytiger
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Re: Shazam

Post by Leicestertinytiger » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:25 pm

I don’t think anyone overestimated the 4-8 ability, we knew they weren’t going to win the premiership on their own. But going from the performance in the quarter final last year, it was thought and hoped they would at least be able to provide the backs good ball in order to win games.

Unfortunately this season, probably down to a lack of good coaching as much as the forwards, they have failed in this task and have actually gone backwards.

ABClub
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Re: Shazam

Post by ABClub » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:17 pm

I think Shazam is the type of player we need to utilise more to get the most out of our squad. Rotation has been dire and a huge problem for season after season now. Harrison offers a different tactical option to YBY and he's a very good organiser whose service should work very well with the backs we've got.

To clarify with some, my aim with this thread wasn't to give posters a place to criticise him or to suggest that he shouldn't be criticised just because he's been at Tigers for many seasons. I simply felt that a lot of the frustration fans are feeling has been aimed at Harrison as half backs behind lacklustre packs so often take misinformed flack.

Tigers have to start rotating squads, not only to keep our best players fresh for the big games but also to bring developing players into sides that allow them a chance to settle and perform. If used right Shazam should be a vital part in a strong that can make small changes at will not wholesale changes out of desperation (injury crises and internationals) or throwing in the towel (Sunday).

JP14
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Re: Shazam

Post by JP14 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:48 pm

ABClub wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:17 pm
I think Shazam is the type of player we need to utilise more to get the most out of our squad. Rotation has been dire and a huge problem for season after season now. Harrison offers a different tactical option to YBY and he's a very good organiser whose service should work very well with the backs we've got.

To clarify with some, my aim with this thread wasn't to give posters a place to criticise him or to suggest that he shouldn't be criticised just because he's been at Tigers for many seasons. I simply felt that a lot of the frustration fans are feeling has been aimed at Harrison as half backs behind lacklustre packs so often take misinformed flack.

Tigers have to start rotating squads, not only to keep our best players fresh for the big games but also to bring developing players into sides that allow them a chance to settle and perform. If used right Shazam should be a vital part in a strong that can make small changes at will not wholesale changes out of desperation (injury crises and internationals) or throwing in the towel (Sunday).
All very well, you have to remember that MOc is notorious for not rotating his squad or using developmental players
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

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