Over Reaction to Defeats

[Clowbeck]

We had a 4 point lead and on at least 3 occasions we declined 3 points and went into the corner, a tactic which has been an abject failure all season. For heavens sake win the game first or at least make it safe.

We needed the win and TBP.

[westwinds31]

These are professional rugby players, some of them internationals. Like any job, when things go wrong people react in different ways. Some roll their sleeves up and fight, some moan and :censored:. It’s not good for confidence and the blame culture kicks in. The Barrow “incident” is probably a consequence of this. Losing makes it worse and it’s a spiral difficult to rectify....even the wins seem like defeats ! Confidence is rock bottom. That’s what we’ve probably got with some players still in the Cocker camp, others in the Mauger camp, very few with O’Connor and some stuck in between the two....similar to this forum. However bad we are, 100% effort should be a gimme and it’s clear some players aren’t willing to give that....Ben Youngs isn’t right at Tigers, yet for England he’s on fire. Dan Cole is the only guy I’m giving 8 out of 10 every week.

The worry for me is that we see sacking MOC as the answer. The answer is to rebuild and it won’t be pretty. If you were Spencer etc,you’d look at the current set up and then go elsewhere or stay at Worcester. You need players who want to play for Tigers....how many actually do in the current squad ? As in, spill blood for the badge....not many. As bad as it currently is, I see things improving when the 6 Nations is on, with some players coming in with a point to prove. It happens. As for the short term...it’s bleak.

[voice of the crumbie]

We had a 4 point lead and on at least 3 occasions we declined 3 points and went into the corner, a tactic which has been an abject failure all season. For heavens sake win the game first or at least make it safe.

We needed the win and TBP.

And if we weren't so poor at converting opportunities we would have got it. If it were up to me I'd have the forwards just train on how to attack with and defend the driving maul. Just that. Sort that out then move on to the next problem area e.g. contesting the breakdown, how to attack as a unit near the line not as individuals taking the ball standing still etc, etc.The situation is so dire that we have to go for broke to try and get bonus points in all the remaining games (not an easy task) to get anything out of this season.

[voice of the crumbie]

These are professional rugby players, some of them internationals. Like any job, when things go wrong people react in different ways. Some roll their sleeves up and fight, some moan and . It’s not good for confidence and the blame culture kicks in. The Barrow “incident” is probably a consequence of this. Losing makes it worse and it’s a spiral difficult to rectify....even the wins seem like defeats ! Confidence is rock bottom. That’s what we’ve probably got with some players still in the Cocker camp, others in the Mauger camp, very few with O’Connor and some stuck in between the two....similar to this forum. However bad we are, 100% effort should be a gimme and it’s clear some players aren’t willing to give that....Ben Youngs isn’t right at Tigers, yet for England he’s on fire. Dan Cole is the only guy I’m giving 8 out of 10 every week.

The worry for me is that we see sacking MOC as the answer. The answer is to rebuild and it won’t be pretty. If you were Spencer etc,you’d look at the current set up and then go elsewhere or stay at Worcester. You need players who want to play for Tigers....how many actually do in the current squad ? As in, spill blood for the badge....not many. As bad as it currently is, I see things improving when the 6 Nations is on, with some players coming in with a point to prove. It happens. As for the short term...it’s bleak.

Good summary. I agree with you. I hope having "got the monkey off our backs" and one a game - however unconvincingly- some confidence may start to return.

[chewbacca]

We had a 4 point lead and on at least 3 occasions we declined 3 points and went into the corner, a tactic which has been an abject failure all season. For heavens sake win the game first or at least make it safe.

We needed the win and TBP.

Well we got the win. Once you have executed an action and failed to achieve the desired result to continue to do so expecting a different outcome is stupidity.

[BFG]

We had a 4 point lead and on at least 3 occasions we declined 3 points and went into the corner, a tactic which has been an abject failure all season. For heavens sake win the game first or at least make it safe.

We needed the win and TBP.

Well we got the win. Once you have executed an action and failed to achieve the desired result to continue to do so expecting a different outcome is stupidity.

I'm in full agreement with chewbacca, you keep taking the three points and build a lead unless you have shown an obvious advantage over the opposition up front at the line out drive, which Leicester have not!
The shot at goal is advantageous for three main reasons.
First it gives your forwards a rest, after what is usually a big effort to gain the penalty it's not always wise to push them into an immediate pressure situation for accuracy reasoning, and we are seeing our accuracy not spot on in these situations.
Second is stretching away from the opposition affects their mindset and shape, they start to play catch up rugby and that can open things up for you, taking the three points might seem a small margin but once past one score they have to start trying to play and at Welford Road many teams come not to play but to simply stop Leicester playing, draw them out and then there is more to be had.
Third, if you miss the goal kick then they have to kick out from their 22 anyway and they either kick long and give back easy possession or go short to contest and you are playing exactly where you want to be in their territory, and you have had a rest whilst the kick is taken.
One other reason to keep kicking three points is that it makes the amount of penalties more apparent to the referee, and he is much more likely to get his cards out for continued offences of spoiling the game, which again is particularly apparent when teams visit Welford Road.

[speedski]

We needed the win and TBP.

Well we got the win. Once you have executed an action and failed to achieve the desired result to continue to do so expecting a different outcome is stupidity.

I'm in full agreement with chewbacca, you keep taking the three points and build a lead unless you have shown an obvious advantage over the opposition up front at the line out drive, which Leicester have not!
The shot at goal is advantageous for three main reasons.
First it gives your forwards a rest, after what is usually a big effort to gain the penalty it's not always wise to push them into an immediate pressure situation for accuracy reasoning, and we are seeing our accuracy not spot on in these situations.
Second is stretching away from the opposition affects their mindset and shape, they start to play catch up rugby and that can open things up for you, taking the three points might seem a small margin but once past one score they have to start trying to play and at Welford Road many teams come not to play but to simply stop Leicester playing, draw them out and then there is more to be had.
Third, if you miss the goal kick then they have to kick out from their 22 anyway and they either kick long and give back easy possession or go short to contest and you are playing exactly where you want to be in their territory, and you have had a rest whilst the kick is taken.
One other reason to keep kicking three points is that it makes the amount of penalties more apparent to the referee, and he is much more likely to get his cards out for continued offences of spoiling the game, which again is particularly apparent when teams visit Welford Road.

Not to mention when LI had no decent kicker on the pitch it was obvious they couldn't capitalise on the kicking so would be going for tries. We passed up 9 points in 5m lineouts in less than 6 minutes of play - we eventually scored from the middle of the pitch via MT and from the kick off they got the try and the conversion - we went for tries and passed up the points you should NEVER pass up the points if the opposition is within at least a converted try (LI we're only 4 points behind through all the above!) Mindless play, absolutely mindless.

[BFG]

Speedski, it was my biggest concern when Ford was signed!
I thought that he had got over it, but can see a reluctance to take the goal kick.
He needs to relax about it, it doesn't matter if he misses some, you make them go again from their 22.
Teams always come to spoil at Welford Road, and tactically three pointers are crucial!

[speedski]

Speedski, it was my biggest concern when Ford was signed!
I thought that he had got over it, but can see a reluctance to take the goal kick.
He needs to relax about it, it doesn't matter if he misses some, you make them go again from their 22.
Teams always come to spoil at Welford Road, and tactically three pointers are crucial!

It wasn't GF who was making the decision not to go for goal.

in saying that GF kicking out of hand was decidedly average yesterday - well, the kicks weren't great, the lack of chase was unforgivable.

[fentiger]

It wasn't GF who was making the decision not to go for goal.

in saying that GF kicking out of hand was decidedly average yesterday - well, the kicks weren't great, the lack of chase was unforgivable.

As he was Captain it beggars the question......

[ghdav27]

Speedski, it was my biggest concern when Ford was signed!
I thought that he had got over it, but can see a reluctance to take the goal kick.
He needs to relax about it, it doesn't matter if he misses some, you make them go again from their 22.
Teams always come to spoil at Welford Road, and tactically three pointers are crucial!

It wasn't GF who was making the decision not to go for goal.

in saying that GF kicking out of hand was decidedly average yesterday - well, the kicks weren't great, the lack of chase was unforgivable.

A try bonus point from that game was very important, rightly or wrongly it was clearly tactical not to kick penalties I don't think it was down to Ford's skill as a goal kicker that they kept kicking to the corner.

Personally I think his goal kicking has been pretty good this season.

[WhitecapTiger]

It wasn't GF who was making the decision not to go for goal.

As the Captain, Yes it was.

He may well have conferred with more experienced players or his pack who said they'd give the catch and drive another go, or other players chip in with 'We need tries, we can do this" comments and influenced his thought process / decisions.

Maybe that in itself shows a lack of trust among the players, were some of them likely to 'rebel' if he went for goal and effectively said "we're not failing again"? or conversely, maybe it shows some togetherness in the players that they do have faith in each other - despite some amateur bloggers and journos desperate to raise their own profiles are trying to drive a wedge into the smallest crack.

But ultimately, part of his role as Captain is to assess the pros/cons and give the final decision.

I think he went for the corners to give the pack opportunity to get it right and drive over, gain/restore confidence and belief - the floodgates effect....get it right once and "hey lads, we're in here let's do it again!"

Fortunately, turning down 3 pointers here and there didn't come back to bite us at the end....just. Against a better team it may have done, but maybe that assessment was also made, we weren't playing a better team so the potential rewards outweighed the risks in the Captain's opinion.

Sadly it didn't work.

[BFG]

Speedski, it was my biggest concern when Ford was signed!
I thought that he had got over it, but can see a reluctance to take the goal kick.
He needs to relax about it, it doesn't matter if he misses some, you make them go again from their 22.
Teams always come to spoil at Welford Road, and tactically three pointers are crucial!

It wasn't GF who was making the decision not to go for goal.

in saying that GF kicking out of hand was decidedly average yesterday - well, the kicks weren't great, the lack of chase was unforgivable.

A try bonus point from that game was very important, rightly or wrongly it was clearly tactical not to kick penalties I don't think it was down to Ford's skill as a goal kicker that they kept kicking to the corner.

Personally I think his goal kicking has been pretty good this season.

Yes agree it has been good, but the less you go for then the less you will miss.
For me though the biggest assist for Leicester at home is how building a lead can change the game, teams come to frustrate us and the more frustration the more mistakes, and the more we get frustrated the more opposition are encouraged to stay tight.
Leicester really need to win the game before the try bonus point enters the mindset, only then will they be able to relax and play freely and without fear!
It could make a huge difference to them in my opinion!

[speedski]

It wasn't GF who was making the decision not to go for goal.

As the Captain, Yes it was.

He may well have conferred with more experienced players or his pack who said they'd give the catch and drive another go, or other players chip in with 'We need tries, we can do this" comments and influenced his thought process / decisions.

Maybe that in itself shows a lack of trust among the players, were some of them likely to 'rebel' if he went for goal and effectively said "we're not failing again"? or conversely, maybe it shows some togetherness in the players that they do have faith in each other - despite some amateur bloggers and journos desperate to raise their own profiles are trying to drive a wedge into the smallest crack.

But ultimately, part of his role as Captain is to assess the pros/cons and give the final decision.

I think he went for the corners to give the pack opportunity to get it right and drive over, gain/restore confidence and belief - the floodgates effect....get it right once and "hey lads, we're in here let's do it again!"

Fortunately, turning down 3 pointers here and there didn't come back to bite us at the end....just. Against a better team it may have done, but maybe that assessment was also made, we weren't playing a better team so the potential rewards outweighed the risks in the Captain's opinion.

Sadly it didn't work.

I said it wasn't him because he wasn't as captain making the call - he was letting the scrum make the call and they kept failing. He should have been much stronger to force the decision - he lacked conviction and he lacked execution.

There are 400,000 reasons a year for him to be ALOT better than he was yesterday.

[gingertiger47]

I think the club has lost direction & is risking losing its heritage & identity with too much emphasis on vanity projects, marquee signings & marketing hype rather than building a team capable of seriously challenging for honours. Leaving aside the results & performances for a moment, what do the people of this club really want us to be? The playoffs are looking doubtful & even qualification for the Champions Cup is looking questionable, but the hotel & carpark are on track so that makes it OK??!! Perhaps the hotel can be sponsored by easyJet as their corporate colours would blend so nicely with the garish Nottingham :censored: green. Exeter have no hotel, Saracens barely have a stadium, but they have built the two best teams in England by a distance. I could go on ad nauseam about the current plight of the club, but instead I will merely urge the board to rethink their strategies, expand their horizons beyond Nelson Mandela Park & admit that they & all the other ex-Tigers players are not the soles guardians of how to run a successful rugby club & concede that we need new blood & fresh thinking. The rest of the UK & Irish rugby teams have caught up &, in many cases, overtaken us. The Tigers way is not the only way.