Cohen, Glynn, to be sacked?

[Rugbyflanker]

Yeah we dont even split the field with an option each side. Our attacking play considering we have supposed world class players is awful at times!

[Grimlish]

If Manu is playing outside Toomua when Toomua is first receiver doesnt that make Manu the second receiver ie the '12'?

Yes but Ford never takes it up, we play with a second receiver in Toomua and basically don't need one because our first receiver Ford is always there anyway!

Isn't that just playing as a pod of three, giving options both sides to the player with the ball?

And isn't George at his best when he plays it right up against the line with those delightful little passes that release his runner(s)? When he does it it looks great...

[BFG]

If Manu is playing outside Toomua when Toomua is first receiver doesnt that make Manu the second receiver ie the '12'?

Yes but Ford never takes it up, we play with a second receiver in Toomua and basically don't need one because our first receiver Ford is always there anyway!

Isn't that just playing as a pod of three, giving options both sides to the player with the ball?

And isn't George at his best when he plays it right up against the line with those delightful little passes that release his runner(s)? When he does it it looks great...

Who are Ford's runners though, I have seen none!
I've only seen one great line up the middle worth remembering and that was Holmes!
Rugbyflanker said it best, we don't split the field!

[Grimlish]

Who are Ford's runners though, I have seen none!
I've only seen one great line up the middle worth remembering and that was Holmes!
Rugbyflanker said it best, we don't split the field!

Except we do try to at times - there have been several attacking scrums where the backs have set up split, often with May and George directly behind the scrum giving them options either side. We're not the only team who do it. I suspect that came back from an England training camp.

[BFG]

Who are Ford's runners though, I have seen none!
I've only seen one great line up the middle worth remembering and that was Holmes!
Rugbyflanker said it best, we don't split the field!

Except we do try to at times - there have been several attacking scrums where the backs have set up split, often with May and George directly behind the scrum giving them options either side. We're not the only team who do it. I suspect that came back from an England training camp.

We can surely do better than first phase off a set scrum!
It's the multi-phase play that has no natural balance to it and just ends up side to side!
I'd add that Leicester's best performances this season so far against the Chiefs, Castres and the Falcons contained either Toomua, Tait, Smith or Owen in the centres.
The Ford/Toomua/Manu axis is yet to offer the same level of threats!

[G.K]

All this discussion about what the backs should be doing is a bit pointless if the forwards are getting bullied at the breakdown, can't secure the lineout, can't maul etc, and as a result if/when they get the ball the defence is already in their face.

Having said that, when they do get it they often don't do much with it, lateral play, going sideways or backwards then run out of ideas, try something reckless or hoof it away or get turned over.

At the moment it doesn't seem to matter who plays where, which to me indicates a coaching issue.

[jgriffin]

All this discussion about what the backs should be doing is a bit pointless if the forwards are getting bullied at the breakdown, can't secure the lineout, can't maul etc, and as a result if/when they get the ball the defence is already in their face.

Having said that, when they do get it they often don't do much with it, lateral play, going sideways or backwards then run out of ideas, try something reckless or hoof it away or get turned over.

At the moment it doesn't seem to matter who plays where, which to me indicates a coaching issue.

Exactly my issue and exactly how we played for 75% of MOCs previous tenure

[Grimlish]

I'd add that Leicester's best performances this season so far against the Chiefs, Castres and the Falcons contained either Toomua, Tait, Smith or Owen in the centres.
The Ford/Toomua/Manu axis is yet to offer the same level of threats!

Well Toomua and Manu have mostly been injured. Its hardly surprising Manu has yet to approach previous heights - the club is doing its best to manage expectations with Ford's comments today. George, like every other FH, finds it easier behind a pack that provides at least some front foot ball. I agree Tait remains a class operator, slower than he was perhaps, and you know what you are getting with Smithy and if you play to his strengths (is he still one of the quickest in the squad without looking like it?)....

But one of the most disappointing parts of Saturday was those long loopy passes totally mullering the overlaps we had created. Surely no-one is coaching that?

[Stephen18]

[/quote]

But one of the most disappointing parts of Saturday was those long loopy passes totally mullering the overlaps we had created. Surely no-one is coaching that?
[/quote]

Toomua did have success with those passes early in the season, but people have now caught on to it, and just drift with the pass and take man and ball. I think it needs to be switched up and toomua needs to run the ball more and hit runner of him rather than just shipping the ball.

[Grimlish]

Agreed. But it was also Ben and George throwing those passes. Of course sometimes it will work, but for that to happen they have to fix the defenders, stop the drift. That was what was missing on saturday - just any semblance of guile and now-how.

[Tiglon]

On the subject of players being "made" better or worse by Tigers - I don't think you can solely attribute improvement or decline to coaching although of course that is one of the factors.

Maybe some players take steps to help themselves improve, or are less than 100% committed and decline. Maybe the players they play with influence them positively or negatively. Maybe our recruitment is now less able to identify players with the right mental attributes to enable them to improve. Maybe some players simply improve with greater experience, game time, age and maturity.

Players are people, who are able to control themselves, as well as being influenced by those around them. They are not blank canvasses that the coaches can paint whatever picture they like on. Sometimes people paint their own pictures.

When Cockers was here and the team played poorly, there was always blaming of both players and coaches. It seems now it's only MOC who gets the blame when things go badly, and I don't think that's a very balanced way to look at things.

If you listen to Eddie Jones talk about coaching, he advocates giving players responsibility, letting them lead, rather than being told exactly what to do by coaches all the time. He wants players on the pitch who can lead themselves and each other, make the right decisions themselves, and figure things out themselves. We could do with a bit of that at Tigers, but perhaps we do not have a squad capable of doing it? When Jones took over England he clearly had, and continue to has, a preference for players with leadership qualities. It is interesting that one of the first players he dropped was the player that Tigers clearly believe is their greatest leader, and therefore captain.

[mol2]

We don't have the players to make the decisions.

Other teams have worked out our forwards, at least with Genge out, offer negligable attacking threat.

The option to spin it wide is easily nullified if you don't have to worry about the forwards busting through the defensive line. You have the option of spreading the defensive line wider because the middle is easily defended.

[Tiglon]

We don't have the players to make the decisions.

Other teams have worked out our forwards, at least with Genge out, offer negligable attacking threat.

The option to spin it wide is easily nullified if you don't have to worry about the forwards busting through the defensive line. You have the option of spreading the defensive line wider because the middle is easily defended.

Therein lies my point. No matter which coaches we have, we do not have the players for Tigers to be as good as we all want them to be.

[TigerCam]

We don't have the players to make the decisions.

Other teams have worked out our forwards, at least with Genge out, offer negligable attacking threat.

The option to spin it wide is easily nullified if you don't have to worry about the forwards busting through the defensive line. You have the option of spreading the defensive line wider because the middle is easily defended.

Exactly what happened on Saturday, ball spun wide at no pace facing a square-shouldered defence. Ball-carrying forwards needed to break up and suck in the defensive players from phases of play until the defence cracks and the quick backs can go through the hole that has been made.

[G.K]

We don't have the players to make the decisions.

Other teams have worked out our forwards, at least with Genge out, offer negligable attacking threat.

The option to spin it wide is easily nullified if you don't have to worry about the forwards busting through the defensive line. You have the option of spreading the defensive line wider because the middle is easily defended.

Therein lies my point. No matter which coaches we have, we do not have the players for Tigers to be as good as we all want them to be.

It's clear that some of players are not top drawer, but who recruited them? However that aside it's getting worse, not better and much of that has to do with managememt and coaching.