Cohen, Glynn, to be sacked?

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Rugbyflanker
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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by Rugbyflanker » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:25 am

Well he's been a massive failure so far. If it wasn't for Bakewell we wouldn't have even been in the playoff mix and imo would be playing CC rugby next season!

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by JP14 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:52 pm

Rugbyflanker wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:25 am
Well he's been a massive failure so far. If it wasn't for Bakewell we wouldn't have even been in the playoff mix and imo would be playing CC rugby next season!
We already are playing for CC rugby!!!
"Our Greatest Glory Is Not In Never Failing, But In Rising Every Time We Fall" Confucius

Rugbyflanker
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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by Rugbyflanker » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:56 pm

No we are only a point away from guaranteeing RCC rugby,my point being we would be out the mix completely by now if not for Bakewell

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by drc_007 » Tue May 01, 2018 8:07 am

Not convinced that Bakewell has really made an impact. It is now looking more like a dead cat bounce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_bounce

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by Tiglon » Tue May 01, 2018 4:56 pm

Our good form coincided with Bakewell's arrival, yes. Doesn't mean it was all down to him, there were plenty of other possible factors. BOC returning, Genge returning, Toomua at 10, the list goes on. Sometimes teams have ups and downs for no discernible reasons.

We don't see what goes on behind the scenes, and none of us actually have much of an idea what Bakewell's actual contribution has been.

Given that we've been pretty awful in 1.5 of our last 2 games, I'd be inclined to agree with drc_007.

I think we need to move away from the idea that coaches are either geniuses or morons, and that every success or failure is entirely their doing. The players do have some input too...

I've tried to find a link to an article by Jonathan Liew (I think) from a few years back where he studied the results of Premier League football clubs and compared to total playing squad salaries and who the manager was. Success was almost entirely in line with the wages they paid, apart from Moyes at Everton who did better, and someone else who did worse. There was often a small temporary upturn when a new manager came in, but they quickly reverted to results in line with their wage spends. While you can't directly transfer this to rugby due to the wage cap, and yes they are different sports, it does suggest that in sport the results are largely down to the quality of the players, and not the tactics or coaching of those who they play for.

mol2
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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by mol2 » Tue May 01, 2018 6:50 pm

Given the salary cap, the wage bill is broadly similar for most clubs.

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by Tiglon » Tue May 01, 2018 7:18 pm

mol2 wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 6:50 pm
Given the salary cap, the wage bill is broadly similar for most clubs.
Yes, I did acknowledge that, however...
it does suggest that in sport the results are largely down to the quality of the players, and not the tactics or coaching of those who they play for.
It's not the fact that you are paying the players more that makes them play better, it's the fact that paying more attracts better players. Therefore, it follows that in the study it was the teams with the best players who were successful, regardless of coaches.

For a more rugby-specific example - Exeter Chiefs. In their first season in the Premiership they finished 8th and have steadily improved from there until they became champions last year. Is that because they have a better Head Coach or DoR now? Or is it because they have better players?

I would argue that recruitment is more important than coaching.

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by Rugbyflanker » Tue May 01, 2018 7:31 pm

2 points for me,Chiefs have got 60 odd players in their cap so it isn't always paying more that gets the best,its value for money. But it's also absolutely tied in with the coaches,if you put together an AP XV you wouldn't get many Chiefs players but theyre still the best drilled and know exactly what they are doing from 1-46! There's no drop off in squad players and that is the coaching,compared with ours that is poor bar Stanko.

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by Tiglon » Tue May 01, 2018 9:51 pm

Rugbyflanker wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 7:31 pm
2 points for me,Chiefs have got 60 odd players in their cap so it isn't always paying more that gets the best,its value for money. But it's also absolutely tied in with the coaches,if you put together an AP XV you wouldn't get many Chiefs players but theyre still the best drilled and know exactly what they are doing from 1-46! There's no drop off in squad players and that is the coaching,compared with ours that is poor bar Stanko.
With the salary cap, it comes down to how you choose to distribute it. Exeter have chosen to forgo the superstars that Wasps seek out, in favour of having a deeper squad and fewer weak links. If you rated Wasps players you'd have some really high ratings, and some fairly low ratings. With Exeter it would be more consistent ratings across the team. There is little drop off in squad players at Chiefs because they have chosen to spread the cap more thinly than teams like Wasps or Tigers - it isn't necessarily the coaching. There is then the recent success of their academy which makes having a strong team within the cap much easier - but that only last so long until their wage demands increase, as Sarries are finding out. Maybe this is because Exeter have a big catchment area in a region where rugby is popular, maybe it's because the coaching team are very good at developing young players, maybe it's just coincidence.

You wouldn't get many players from any one team in an AP XV, because the salary cap doesn't allow you to collect that many "best in league" players.

You say Stanko's coaching is good, because our scrum does well. But is the scrum successful because Cole and Genge are outstanding players, or because Stanko is a good coach? It's not that easy to establish cause and effect in these situations, and that is my main point.

I just think we need to be a bit more balanced when deciding what or who has caused a win or defeat. There is rarely a simple "it's all because of him" answer.

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by Rugbyflanker » Tue May 01, 2018 10:20 pm

Some great points Tiglon but here's a poser. Would we have made the playoffs with Baxter,Hepher and Hunt in charge? For me a million percent yes!

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by RagingBull » Tue May 01, 2018 10:56 pm

That coaching team have also been with Exeter since 2009.
He's been allowed to build his squad up without the pressure our coaches face.
Just like Deano at Newcastle. (2012)
McCall at Sarries too (2010/11)
Young (2011)

Is it the coaches or have they over time been able to develop their vision?
Would Baxter, Hunter and Hepher really do a job for a completely different team in the space of a year? Who knows.

But none of our coaches other than Murphy have been senior coaches at Tigers for longer than the last 18 months or so.

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by Tiglon » Wed May 02, 2018 7:31 am

Rugbyflanker wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 10:20 pm
Some great points Tiglon but here's a poser. Would we have made the playoffs with Baxter,Hepher and Hunt in charge? For me a million percent yes!
Maybe, but we don't know. I agree with RagingBull below and would say that if Baxter etc joined us at the same time as MOC, then quite possibly no, we still wouldn't be in the playoffs - I honestly believe that it's the inaccuracies by players this season that has caused us to miss out on the playoffs. There are at least 2/3 matches this season which were lost, but would have been won if one or two passes had been more accurate, or one or two balls had not been dropped.

If they had joined us 2 years ago then our squad would look quite different and yes we probably would be in the playoffs.
Post by RagingBull » Tue May 01, 2018 10:56 pm

That coaching team have also been with Exeter since 2009.
He's been allowed to build his squad up without the pressure our coaches face.
Just like Deano at Newcastle. (2012)
McCall at Sarries too (2010/11)
Young (2011)

Is it the coaches or have they over time been able to develop their vision?
Would Baxter, Hunter and Hepher really do a job for a completely different team in the space of a year? Who knows.

But none of our coaches other than Murphy have been senior coaches at Tigers for longer than the last 18 months or so.
Consistency of recruitment strategy is also a big benefit. How many coaches have come into a Premiership club and transformed them in the space of a year?

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by MurphysLaw » Wed May 02, 2018 8:23 am

Ackerman has made a difference at Glaws, and Gold has improved Wuss.

However, on balance, I agree with the general point about having some time and consistency.

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by trendylfj » Wed May 02, 2018 9:00 am

If anyone has any doubt about the effect Bakes has had on the squad and the forwards in particular, please read Dan's article in the Guardian : https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... mpions-cup.

I have say when I saw the link my first thought was Dan's off to a European club as his final few years playing but thankfully not what it meant.
Hehehehehehehehe

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Re: MOC to be sacked?

Post by TigerCam » Wed May 02, 2018 6:14 pm

Rugbyflanker wrote:
Tue May 01, 2018 7:31 pm
2 points for me,Chiefs have got 60 odd players in their cap so it isn't always paying more that gets the best,its value for money. But it's also absolutely tied in with the coaches,if you put together an AP XV you wouldn't get many Chiefs players but theyre still the best drilled and know exactly what they are doing from 1-46! There's no drop off in squad players and that is the coaching,compared with ours that is poor bar Stanko.
Spot on RF :smt023 :smt023

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