Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

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TTRITH
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by TTRITH »

Coops wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:12 pm A question, and hopefully a valid one:

If we lose to Gloucester, what happens?

MoC says “Now we’ve got another home game and another opportunity to fix those the wrongs.” But what if those "wrongs" can't be righted? Does he continue? Board were quick to ditch Cockers when it didn't go right.
I think MoC will continue and I do think he is the right person for the job. A lot has been said about the investment in the squad but what about the coaching staff. The coaches we have at the club are inexperienced. We needed a defense coach during the Cockers/MoC reign, we needed a quality forwards coach whilst Cockers was still here and we've needed a specialised half backs coach since Flood left. I thought we had a coaches review at the end of the season. How were these issues not seen?!

Our players seem to favour a softy soft approach. What they need is a rocket up their backsides. We've played 2 of our biggest games as a club, Bath and Northampton, and aside from the first 10 and last 10 against Bath our players didn't look up for them. That is more concerning that the results IMO. Do they not know the history of the club? Do they not care?

Blaze needs to go. Who would I bring in? In an ideal world I'd bring in Wiggie, but he won't leave Quins for a while. Why not try and convince ex-Tiger Brad Thorn to come in. Whilst he's been coaching less time than Blaze, but he has far more experience in world rugby and would fit in along MoC. He knows the players, knows exactly what they should be doing and wouldn't let them get away with not giving 100%.

I also am advocate of bringing in an outsider who has never been at the club and could highlight all the inadequacies without worrying what people think. That man, IMO, is Shaun Edwards. As a defense coach, he is second to none. He has a fantastic track record and would happily tell the apparent stars that they need to shape up or they won't have a shirt next week. Unfortunately he has joined Cardiff Blues on a part-time consultancy basis, but I reckon a full time job to turn around Tigers might tickle his fancy.

Finally lets bring back Jamie Hamilton. A former Tigers coach, currently video analyst with the All Blacks, the guy has spent a lot of time in the all blacks camp and would bring another string to the bow of the coaching set up at Oval Park. He would be able to provide dedicate training to our half backs who look like they need some specific time to highlight their strengths and deal with their weaknesses.

So a back room staff of MoC (Head Coach; Attacking), Shedwards (Defense), Thorn (Forwards/Line Out), Hamilton (Half backs, Analysis), Smurf (Backs), Boris (Scrum, PT). That would, IMO, provide a coaching set up that would get the best out of our players. Give Deacon and Allen free range with the development/youth sides.

I'd also "do a Sarries" and take the squad away on a team bonding exercise. Surely we can find a sponsor who would be willing to fund something for the team. We don't look like a team, we look distracted, we look uninterested. We need to find out why, and what we need to do to improve it.

Also lets stop all talk of a first choice XV. Each player should earn his shirt. If you are in the Tigers squad you should have the chance to compete for the opportunity to play. Aside from Genge, Thacker, May and Hamilton, the other 11 should have to fight for the right to start next week.

Yes, a lot of you may think I live in a fantasy world and am talking a lot of Trollope. But I am stating what I would do, and if nothing else, put Simon Cohen slightly further up the list of people who should be our CEO.
Richard Burnett
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Coops
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by Coops »

BFG wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:18 pm
Coops wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:12 pm A question, and hopefully a valid one:

If we lose to Gloucester, what happens?

MoC says “Now we’ve got another home game and another opportunity to fix those the wrongs.” But what if those "wrongs" can't be righted? Does he continue? Board were quick to ditch Cockers when it didn't go right.
I didn't agree with sacking coaches mid-season before and still don't.
Despite everything I still fancy Leicester to win at home against Gloucester.
The will get a win eventually and I'd put money on it this week, I have doubts that'll it continue for long though.
Top four could be a struggle!
Merely playing devil's advocate - I don't agree with the wendyball mentality but it is concerning times.
Coops
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by Coops »

TTRITH wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:18 pm
<snip>

So a back room staff of MoC (Head Coach; Attacking), Shedwards (Defense), Thorn (Forwards/Line Out), Hamilton (Half backs, Analysis), Smurf (Backs), Boris (Scrum, PT). That would, IMO, provide a coaching set up that would get the best out of our players. Give Deacon and Allen free range with the development/youth sides.

I'd also "do a Sarries" and take the squad away on a team bonding exercise. Surely we can find a sponsor who would be willing to fund something for the team. We don't look like a team, we look distracted, we look uninterested. We need to find out why, and what we need to do to improve it.
Interesting take on things TTRITH, and a very impressive coaching setup. I agree the current setup isn't working, they clearly lack experience and have been kept on because of this "Tigers Way" business.

They went on a team bonding exercise to Rutland Water...................... :smt017
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by LE18 »

I wonder if Toomua would be better at 13? His linking with Ford was not same as when Ford linked with Bath or England 12s, Toomua came inside so often and ran into brick walls, I think he is more skillful than a crash ball 12, he would make breaks further out at 13 and May would receive more ball, which he was starved of on Saturday. When we signed Ford, I wondered if we had the players skillful or not to play around him, at the moment clearly not, but hopefully others will learn how to take Fords subtle passes/offloads.
Regarding our pack, we do seem lightweight compared to others, I said this last season that other clubs seem to have stockier props, (dont shout Logo please) beefier, tougher, fiesty 2nd and back rows etc. Only Genge and Williams appear to have the physicality to match others, Cole has lost something, don't know what, but only 3rd choice Lions TH and I think it is reflected here, although he has not played much but if he is No 1 TH why did he not start v Bath.
I really would like to see Bateman as hooker, front row would then match up weight wise to best teams, we cannot be lightweight and win the mauls/loose play, we have to toughen up and I can see Slater making great efforts this week to show Tigers their decision was very wrong! Altogether a very poor performance v Saints.
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by johnthegriff »

TTRITH, I can't agree with your comments, we had a first class forwards coach with Cockers, Tigers forwards dominated throughout the Pat Howard era with Cocker coaching, they maintained their dominance after Paddy left and the backs suffered but when Cocker took over in 2009 with us in eighth position in the Premiership he and MOC took us to the title that year and a Heineken Final. With the two of them at the helm we won more titles until MOC left for Leinster and injuries to our main and back-up centres hampered our performance in the backs but our forwards were the reason we got to semi-finals. The recruitment of players to play the Mauger way has not been successful, I believe the board were wrong to sack Cockers but were not wrong to give MOC the chance to assess his squad before the end of last season and bring in a few of his own men. I am happy with the recruitment of Johnny May, although I am sorry Ed Slater departed. Jonah Holmes, Kalamafoni, and the Fords were decisions made prior to MOC's involvement but they look ok to me, other newcomers for me the jury is still out.
There is no denying that the lineout has been a mess so far but It worked ok under Blazey a couple of years ago so what has changed. Boris seems to have the scrums working alright, but we do seem to lack something from the back row although as individuals they play ok, Mapapalangi looked powerful but raw as an eight, he might be the long term answer.
A couple of years ago someone suggested Edwards as defence coach for us and Cocker pointed out that Wales conceded more tries per game than Tigers, Scottie Hanson as skills and defence coach was not particularly successful.
The Board have given Matt O Connor the job, we have to give him and his team time to show improvement and he must be brave enough to select the best person for a position whether or not they are his recruitment or a player already on the books when he arrived.
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by westwinds31 »

If (it's a big if) we do beat Gloucester, it's a worry that we have to lose twice to wake up and show some spirit. We are Tigers and should be up for every single game, whoever the opposition, but definitely against Bath and Northampton. No team talk required.

My concerns and other points:

- Scrum seems fine.
- Lineout was poor vs Bath and initially vs Saints but did improve.
- We have no leaders in the forwards. OTY maybe, Cole, possibly.
- Breakdown and basic clearing out is non-existent, giving opposition back row a free shot at turnovers.
- Support play - none. Evident in the Bath game where players running with ball did not pick the right option (communication problem ?) One-off runners trundling ball up and are isolated (best example, Bateman vs Saints).
- MoC tries to implement this wide game where you get to the edge and then come back and try and pick numbers off. The players clearly haven't got the hang of this yet, as we're just stood still and shipping the ball on - easy to defend.
- Passion ? stand fast Genge, there is none. He looks like he wants to hurt people...others please follow suit.
- Toomua - quality player who hasn't played for a year - he needs time.
- Malouf - poor bloke. Has never played 15 a side and is asked to do a job ! Tait should be at full back and Veainu on the wing.
- Back row - not good enough and nobody to come in that will change anything - worrying (hopefully someone (x2) coming in)
- The forwards problem is partly down to Cocker - this hasn't been right for 3 - 4 years and mentioned by others on here. We've known about it. This all started when we recruited a couple of Italians from one of the worst club sides in the Pro 12 and has continued with others...Fonua, Pearce...do I need to go on. We have nobody breaking through the Academy, in fact, if I was in the Academy I'd be looking to move on as we don't look to bring players through to the 1st XV. The list of players gone (see other thread) who came through and could have been decent - Purdy, Odogwu, Lewington...all thriving in and around their respective first teams.

We're on the decline I'm afraid and it will get worse before it gets better, regardless of whether we beat Gloucester or not.
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by Scott11 »

Some subliminal messages in there John,I'd love to able to chat to you face to face!
ourla
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by ourla »

westwinds31 wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:56 pmWe're on the decline I'm afraid and it will get worse before it gets better, regardless of whether we beat Gloucester or not.
I hope you don't have a gun or several bottles of medication in the house.
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by westwinds31 »

ourla wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:12 pm
westwinds31 wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:56 pmWe're on the decline I'm afraid and it will get worse before it gets better, regardless of whether we beat Gloucester or not.
I hope you don't have a gun or several bottles of medication in the house.
Hey ourla it's just my view, others are available. I'm fine, hacked off with our displays this and the the last 3 seasons, but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by G.K »

There were a lot of players last weekend masquerading as Tigers, and TBH I'm struggling to see where the improvement in performance will come from. :smt012
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.
ourla
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Re: Eleventh in the Premiership...and rising!

Post by ourla »

G.K wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:16 pm There were a lot of players last weekend masquerading as Tigers, and TBH I'm struggling to see where the improvement in performance will come from. :smt012
How many times have we heard that. Not just about Tigers but about numerous sports teams. And yet it happens all the time. I'm not saying we shouldn't criticise or that Saturdays performance wasn't great. But it's why we all love sport isn't it. The lows and the highs.
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