Tigers v Bath

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Rizzo, Tigerbeat, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Post Reply
Roly
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2351
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by Roly » Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:01 pm

BFG wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:47 pm
Roly, as you state Charteris is probably one of the best operators in the NH, it can be lobbed as you say, anywhere, players can also move anywhere to compete and often do, credit where it's due!
The best team on the day won but it wasn't so far apart that they deserve completely lambasting.
Pre-season was deceiving in it's ease, this was a wake up call!
I find your description of Cole as a liability confusing given that the England coaching dept have openly expressed the view that he has been irreplaceable.
Also your view on Manu as one dimensional, seems to me there was a time when Brad Barritt was accused of similar, look at him now grubber kicks and all, Manu has been out for a long time and will be rusty and is still young enough to improve.
I get the impression further problems would suit you down to the ground, keep it coming, it's precisely your type that'll drive the desire to prove wrong!
"as you state Charteris is probably one of the best operators in the NH, it can be lobbed as you say, anywhere, players can also move anywhere to compete and often do" - apart from Tigers on Sunday, who steadfastly refused to change their point of attack at the line-out, Charteris had an easy ride.

The apparent desire to shoe-horn Tuilagi into the team at whatever cost will come back to haunt this team and its coaching staff. Brad Barritt was not one-dimensional - Saracens were one dimensional, there's a big difference. It seems to have escaped the notice of some that Barritt's ability to play a multi-faceted game coincided almost exactly with Saracen's transition to the multi-faceted game. I'm not sure the 'maths' is that difficult to understand. Can he improve? The question should be, "is he capable of improving?" - it remains to be seen. Wouldn't put the farm on it.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.

BFG
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2987
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by BFG » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:56 pm

Roly wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:01 pm
BFG wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:47 pm
Roly, as you state Charteris is probably one of the best operators in the NH, it can be lobbed as you say, anywhere, players can also move anywhere to compete and often do, credit where it's due!
The best team on the day won but it wasn't so far apart that they deserve completely lambasting.
Pre-season was deceiving in it's ease, this was a wake up call!
I find your description of Cole as a liability confusing given that the England coaching dept have openly expressed the view that he has been irreplaceable.
Also your view on Manu as one dimensional, seems to me there was a time when Brad Barritt was accused of similar, look at him now grubber kicks and all, Manu has been out for a long time and will be rusty and is still young enough to improve.
I get the impression further problems would suit you down to the ground, keep it coming, it's precisely your type that'll drive the desire to prove wrong!
"as you state Charteris is probably one of the best operators in the NH, it can be lobbed as you say, anywhere, players can also move anywhere to compete and often do" - apart from Tigers on Sunday, who steadfastly refused to change their point of attack at the line-out, Charteris had an easy ride.

The apparent desire to shoe-horn Tuilagi into the team at whatever cost will come back to haunt this team and its coaching staff. Brad Barritt was not one-dimensional - Saracens were one dimensional, there's a big difference. It seems to have escaped the notice of some that Barritt's ability to play a multi-faceted game coincided almost exactly with Saracen's transition to the multi-faceted game. I'm not sure the 'maths' is that difficult to understand. Can he improve? The question should be, "is he capable of improving?" - it remains to be seen. Wouldn't put the farm on it.
He will improve either way, one dimensional or not!
Can he evolve his game is the question you should be asking, but further does he need to evolve his game given that coaches like Eddie Jones have said that at his best he can destroy the All Blacks!
The amount of time he has been out he will certainly improve in his one dimensional play over the next few months.
I think he will be just fine if he can back the level of match fitness required and stay fit.
I do actually think you are wrong about Barritt, he was very one dimensional even with England but like Manu he was effective in it, he has matured into a more complete player as will Manu if he can keep fit.

johnthegriff
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:37 am

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by johnthegriff » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:18 pm

Roly asks if this is a transitional season, there is either no such thing or every season is transitional. Players come and go that is the nature of rugby in general and the professional game in particular. For several seasons at Tigers our first choice and for much of the time our second choice as well, centres have been missing, on Sunday they were there, it may take a match or two for them to get up to speed after the time they have been out but they will blend and we will see the benefit. Our pack did ok generally against Bath, due to injury we were missing McGuigan and Fitzgerald plus Cole not able to start, they may have been selected if available. Personally after his cameo performance against Ospreys at Welford Rd and his fine performance and leadership in Bridgend I would have found room for Tom Croft but MOC has his opinion and that is the one that counts. He has a match or two to learn how best to use his squad, we can comment after every game but reasonable judgement comes after several matches with true judgement at the end of the season.
I expect us to at least get to a semi-final maybe even a final, ideally we should show clear improvement on recent seasons and I would like to see one or two of our development or Academy players progress into the first team. Of course being an optimist I look forward to meaningful silverwear (I have ordered my tickets and booked accommodation in Bilbao) but for the purpose of this post I am trying to be realistic.

Tiglon
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1951
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by Tiglon » Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:08 pm

Just watched the full match with commentary switched off and my thoughts are as follows...

Ben Youngs was excellent - his distribution was quick, none of that old taking a few steps before passing, and topped it with 2 or 3 clear breaks.

Lineout was obviously a problem - one throw by TY was thrown over to the Bath side (his error), another no one seemed ready to jump (group/communication/timing error) and it looked like a lot went on in the final crucial lineout. Charteris did good work making it difficult, the jumper appeared to be let go of in mid air by his lifters, yet he still probably should have caught it. Big area to improve, and I do agree that Kitchener didn't/doesn't offer much else so if the lineout isn't working then what are we getting from him?

Bath's first try was not Malouf's fault IMO, he chased, tackled and no one else filled in the gap on the wing. Massive gaping hole for Bath to run into and score easily. The general team defensive organisation was to blame.

Bath's second try was again poor defensive organisation - BY not paying attention to the man he should have been covered, and the player outside not closing the gap between himself and BY. Shouldn't be that easy to score from there.

Bath's third try was a gamble by Rokodoguni, it paid off and he's pretty difficult to stop after that. You could argue that flinging 5 metre offloads out of the tackle is asking for an interception. Offloading works well when it's done short to players running close support lines. Desperately trying to keep the ball alive at all costs in any situation is not always constructive.

Great to see Johnny May in a Tigers shirt, I'm not sure Pietersen would have scored either of those tries. When he and the rest of the back line get more used to each other I'm optimistic we will see some wonderful rugby.

My biggest concern is that we don't seem to have rectified the lack of power, physicality and aggression in numbers 4-8. Our backline will destroy a few teams once they gel, but 4-8 will struggle to get us decent ball on the front foot against the big teams.

Bath defended well and all 3 of their tries were avoidable. A lot to work on but very little that is unfixable - I am feeling optimistic of a top 4 finish, but we'll have to play some spectacular rugby to make up for our 2nd/back row deficiencies against the likes of Saracens.

ourla
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3089
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by ourla » Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:39 pm

I just watched the game with commentary. A mixture of thoughts.

Our new backline will, if staying injury free, be more than a match for the best over the course of the season. There is so much improvement to be had. I saw glimpses in pre-season of what it can be and saw it again tonight. It's as worry free as it can be on that score. But it will take a few games.

The forward pack is slightly more questionable. Not totally convinced veteran Croft is the answer to our line out prayers but we could do with someone/something and heaven knows we've stood by him long enough to be given a return. But that area of our game needs sorting sooner rather than later. Barrow has to get smarter. McGuigan could have a big season. There is some potential star quality there. Can Blaze put it together?

On to the match itself. Two sides of the same coin. Reality is that first yellow was dodgy and without it wouldn't have been a surprise to see us not score again. But we also butchered quite a few opportunities in the first half and had them on the rack at the end and should have got a undeserved victory.

I fully expect a bounce back from Saints at the Gardens next week and we will still be work in progress. So going O and 2 wouldn't be the greatest surprise. I'd want to see some improvements in our performance though.

I have no problems with Bath's second and third tries. Well played them. First was a bit shocking and hard to explain.
You're either in or you're out

G.K
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5787
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:19 am
Location: See SatNav

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by G.K » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:46 am

Whichever way you look at it losing the opening game against Bath was not a good start to the season. First time in the premiership since 2003 so another (negative) record broken. Fortress Welford Road didn't stand for even one day this season.

Looking at some of the other matches and results this weekend I think Tigers will struggle again this season to make the top 4, Falcons, Glos and Reading all look to have improved and Saracens and Wasps also good. Still we live in hope.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

Roly
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2351
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by Roly » Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:14 am

johnthegriff wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:18 pm
Roly asks if this is a transitional season, there is either no such thing or every season is transitional. Players come and go that is the nature of rugby in general and the professional game in particular. For several seasons at Tigers our first choice and for much of the time our second choice as well, centres have been missing, on Sunday they were there, it may take a match or two for them to get up to speed after the time they have been out but they will blend and we will see the benefit. Our pack did ok generally against Bath, due to injury we were missing McGuigan and Fitzgerald plus Cole not able to start, they may have been selected if available. Personally after his cameo performance against Ospreys at Welford Rd and his fine performance and leadership in Bridgend I would have found room for Tom Croft but MOC has his opinion and that is the one that counts. He has a match or two to learn how best to use his squad, we can comment after every game but reasonable judgement comes after several matches with true judgement at the end of the season.
I expect us to at least get to a semi-final maybe even a final, ideally we should show clear improvement on recent seasons and I would like to see one or two of our development or Academy players progress into the first team. Of course being an optimist I look forward to meaningful silverwear (I have ordered my tickets and booked accommodation in Bilbao) but for the purpose of this post I am trying to be realistic.
Good post. I only asked if it could be considered a transitional season, because its a hackneyed cliché trotted out by a few whenever Tigers underachieve - they definitely did on Sunday.

I am optimistic - there's a very good Tigers side in there just waiting to get out.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.

JackFlashJonny
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:45 am

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by JackFlashJonny » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:12 am

Wow Roly I can't believe what you have just said something positive :smt023

Anyway in all seriousness I think it is going to be one of those seasons where the lack of power at 4-8 will mean we rarely get to see this great team unless the forwards win the battle then we can destroy certain teams with grunt upfront...

Roly
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2351
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:02 pm

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by Roly » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:56 am

JackFlashJonny wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:12 am
I think it is going to be one of those seasons where the lack of power at 4-8 will mean we rarely get to see this great team unless the forwards win the battle then we can destroy certain teams with grunt upfront...
So, a mid-table finish it is then.
“It is no use saying, ‘We are doing our best.’ You have got to succeed in doing what is necessary.” Sir Winston Churchill.

JackFlashJonny
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1897
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:45 am

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by JackFlashJonny » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:18 am

Roly wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:56 am
JackFlashJonny wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:12 am
I think it is going to be one of those seasons where the lack of power at 4-8 will mean we rarely get to see this great team unless the forwards win the battle then we can destroy certain teams with grunt upfront...
So, a mid-table finish it is then.
I think we may just scrape top 4 if Sunday was anything to go by but if our forwards can sort themselves out it will be a different story...I just don't know if Blaze is the man to turn them around

Scott11
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 829
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by Scott11 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:24 am

I think we have to at least match last season's tally to finish fourth so matching last season's game we are already 3 points down,a loss to Saints Saturday and we are really playing catch up!

ourla
Super User
Super User
Posts: 3089
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:03 pm

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by ourla » Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:41 am

G.K wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:46 am
Whichever way you look at it losing the opening game against Bath was not a good start to the season. First time in the premiership since 2003 so another (negative) record broken. Fortress Welford Road didn't stand for even one day this season.

Looking at some of the other matches and results this weekend I think Tigers will struggle again this season to make the top 4, Falcons, Glos and Reading all look to have improved and Saracens and Wasps also good. Still we live in hope.
That's a bit glass half empty for me but that is fine. The result doesn't help but I think as ever it's only after week 5/6 you can really see how things are shaping up.
You're either in or you're out

Chobbsy
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2603
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:51 am
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by Chobbsy » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:06 am

ourla wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:41 am
G.K wrote:
Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:46 am
Whichever way you look at it losing the opening game against Bath was not a good start to the season. First time in the premiership since 2003 so another (negative) record broken. Fortress Welford Road didn't stand for even one day this season.

Looking at some of the other matches and results this weekend I think Tigers will struggle again this season to make the top 4, Falcons, Glos and Reading all look to have improved and Saracens and Wasps also good. Still we live in hope.
That's a bit glass half empty for me but that is fine. The result doesn't help but I think as ever it's only after week 5/6 you can really see how things are shaping up.
The worry for me is, that this team without maybe Adam T, is the best we currently have, although the score was close 3 yellow cards most certainly helped us get that close, so if we get a couple of injuries to this team we don't have much to fall back on. On a brighter note, that was a very good Bath side and we are not going to face teams of that quality every week.
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/

BFG
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2987
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:19 pm

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by BFG » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:32 am

Agree Chobbsy Bath were very good, beyond the big names Palma-Newport wasn't bad all round, they have two cracking young loose heads in Obano and Auterac, young hooker Walker and more to come with the likes of Underhill.
They are a very strong side.

Tiger93
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 209
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:36 pm

Re: Tigers v Bath

Post by Tiger93 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:28 pm

Am I alone in thinking the small size of our pitch harms us now? It used to be a massive benefit but now against physical teams we come unstuck and often run out of space to use our creativity and pace?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests